Can you flank with a ranged weapon?

[TheEvil]

If you believe that flanking only occurs when you receive a flanking bonus, that creates a bit of wonkiness, such that formians become impossible to flank rather than merely difficult.

I keep seeing this and I really don't follow how it is the case, so let put forth an example.

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that the formian queen within 50 miles only has two formians left. These two formians (A and B) encounter 3 adventurers (1, 2 and 3). During the fight, the two formians flank Adventurer #1. Adventurer #2 moves to stand opposite Adventurer #1 with Formian A between them. Adventurer #3 moves to stand opposite Adventurer #1 with Formian B between them. To illustrate: 2A1B3

Why aren't they flanked if you can only flank with a melee weapon?

 

[TheEvil]

Right, but it does say the attacker must make a melee attack, so an unarmed attack would get the +2 flanking bonus.

As for ranged weapons, the "When in doubt..." sentence is clearly intended to help out in explaning when the first sentence applies and when it does not, and so applies to making melee attacks only.

I do admit that the second sentence, when taken entirely on it's own, would not prohibit a ranged flanking attack. Of course, it does not stand on it's own but must be taken in the context of an explantory remark on the first sentence.

Couldn't agree with you more, simply trying to point out where people are ignoring the other sides argument. No debate happens if you don't address what the other person is saying.

 

[Infiniti2000]

What is left murky by the rules are the conditions under which flanking occurs. Are you only flanking when you receive a flanking bonus, or can you be considered flanking when you do not receive a flanking bonus but satisfy the line test?

Can it be both? In that case, it eliminates all the wonkiness, doesn't it?

 

[Artoomis]

Can it be both? In that case, it eliminates all the wonkiness, doesn't it?

Um... no.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Flanking, the D20 term.... and flanking, the English term.

Per SRD above:
Attacker must move opposite an ally, flanking them.
Attacker gains Flanking only when making melee attack.
Ally provides Flanking only when threatening opponent.. which is only done with melee weapons.

In order to gain Flanking, all three statements need to be true. Two of those statements specifically exclude ranged weapons.

Without feats, spells, or class abilities, can you Flank with a ranged weapon?
THe D20 term? nope. The English term? yup.
I have no idea where the confusion is coming from...

And to continue the discussion on Formian's ... but thats not what the poll is about.

TheEvil Formians simply add one more check to see if flanking = Flanking.
That check is "Is any Formian that is in the encounter not Flanked" If the answer is no, then the attacking flankers gain Flanking bonuses.
The difficult part is that these checks need to be made for each attack...


Simple, ne' pas?

 

[TheEvil]

The problem is, I keep seeing the claim that formians become unflankable if you can't flank with ranged weapons. Repeating questions for those who hold that belief:

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that the formian queen within 50 miles only has two formians left. These two formians (A and B) encounter 3 adventurers (1, 2 and 3). During the fight, the two formians flank Adventurer #1. Adventurer #2 moves to stand opposite Adventurer #1 with Formian A between them. Adventurer #3 moves to stand opposite Adventurer #1 with Formian B between them. To illustrate: 2A1B3

Why aren't they flanked if you can only flank with a melee weapon?

 

[Felix]

What I want to know is, who's playing the rogue who wants sneak attack dice with his bow?

 

[Krelios]

The funny part of your comment is -- that's your opinion. This actually is a subject for debate and opinion, as you've just proven.

No, it's not my opinion, that's a quote from the rules. There's no other interpretation other than the one given (except for an incorrect one). This is not something that requires adjudication.

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

I see no murk here.

The SRD says that:

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is 
[B]threatened[/B] by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s 
opposite border or opposite corner.

Only a creature or character that [B]threatens[/B] 
the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

I added the bold and copiedthe appropriate sections. The SRD also says (in the section on attacks of opportunity that:

You [B]threaten[/B] all squares into which you can make a [B]melee[/B] attack.

RAW: Short of special feats, you can only threaten with melee weapons. For a creature to be flanked, it must have characters on either side who pass the line test, both of whom must also be in a position to make a melee attack against them. Where is the confusion?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that the formian queen within 50 miles only has two formians left. These two formians (A and B) encounter 3 adventurers (1, 2 and 3). During the fight, the two formians flank Adventurer #1. Adventurer #2 moves to stand opposite Adventurer #1 with Formian A between them. Adventurer #3 moves to stand opposite Adventurer #1 with Formian B between them. To illustrate: 2A1B3

Why aren't they flanked if you can only flank with a melee weapon?

Because the test isn't "do you have a melee weapon?"

It's, "Are you making a melee attack?"

As the non-Ranged side keeps pointing out, the first sentence says "When making a melee attack ..."

Therefore, if they are right, then you are only considered flanking - and the defender is only flanked - when you make that melee attack.

In your example, at any given time, either 1 is "making a melee attack," or 2 is "making a melee attack," or 3 is "making a melee attack." At no point are 1 and 2 both making melee attacks. Thus, at any given point, either A or B is flanked - but never both.

Therefore, A and B can never be flanked.

EDIT: For Grammah.