Can you flank with a ranged weapon?

[Primitive Screwhead]

AHA!

I see the confusion. Its a matter of State and Timing.

If Flanking only happens exaclty when a character makes a melee attack, then the forth condition can never be fulfilled.

Of course, have this argument at my table I will will tell you that you are ... well, anyway.

Its fixed simply by stating that the when testing if a Formian is Flanked, you must check to see if all Formian's would be Flanked if they were subject to an attack at that exact moment.

Silly argument, Flanking if for Formians!

 

[Artoomis]

It means you are only flanking during your own melee attack, because that's the only period in time to which "When making a melee attack..." can apply.

That's sort of true. Sort of, because you are not considering the nature of D&D rounds, in which actions are done sequentially only for our sanity in running the game, they really all happen at once - sort of.

All this "sort of" stuff is what can makes things a little confusing.

Anyway, an opponent is flanked when a melee combatant is entitled to a flanking bonus on him. The flankers are the ones on opposite sides of him. Simple, eh? Both flankers must be making melee attacks (or at least one must be threatening) or the opponent is not flanked.

This can create an odd situation, though. Let's say we have

1A2

where 1 & 2 are PCs and A is the possibly flanked bad guy. Well, if 1 is using a longsword , then so far so good. Now let's say 2 has a dagger in each hand and two attacks (BAB 6 or more). When he attacks with the dagger in melee he gets the +2 flanking bonus and A is clearly flanked. Then he throws the other dagger. He clearly does not get the +2 flanking bonus for the second attack, but is A still flanked?? If so, sneak attack damage would apply.

Okay, I admit that's getting a bit far-fetched and the simplest rule is to simply say that the Rogue flanking sneak attack damage applies only if the Rogue also gets a +2 flanking bonus on that same attack.

 

[Artoomis]

... Its fixed simply by stating that the when testing if a Formian is Flanked, you must check to see if all Formian's would be Flanked if they were subject to an attack at that exact moment...

Exactly. It's perhaps a bit trickier than that, but this works for me. To keep it simple, check to see if all formians have melee attackers threatening them in flanking positions. For a more correct analysis, all must have one opponent threatening them with another in a flanking position able to take advnatage of the +2 flanking bonus (an unarmed attack qualifies, I think).

 

[Artoomis]

Uh, no.

What rule are you using to determine that they are flanked? Lay it out for me, step by step.

See above.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

where 1 & 2 are PCs and A is the possibly flanked bad guy. Well, if 1 is using a longsword , then so far so good. Now let's say 2 has a dagger in each hand and two attacks (BAB 6 or more). When he attacks with the dagger in melee he gets the +2 flanking bonus and A is clearly flanked.

Agreed.

Then he throws the other dagger. He clearly does not get the +2 flanking bonus for the second attack, but is A still flanked?? If so, sneak attack damage would apply.

If you ask me, yes, he is still flanked because he still passes the line test. SA damage would apply because he's within 30'. He doesn't get any attack roll bonus because that's limited to melee attacks. He also provokes an AoO for making a ranged attack while threatened.

Okay, I admit that's getting a bit far-fetched and the simplest rule is to simply say that the Rogue flanking sneak attack damage applies only if the Rogue also gets a +2 flanking bonus on that same attack.

In other words, you're back to arguing that flanking only happens when you get the bonus on your attack rolls.

That's OK - you can take that position - but keep in mind the ramifications thereof.

I've got to go, unfortunately, so I'll miss the rest of this for a while. Happy debating, y'all!

 

[Thanee]

Q: Can you flank with a ranged weapon?
A: Sure, as long as you perform a melee attack with it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Artoomis]

Q: Can you flank with a ranged weapon?
A: Sure, as long as you perform a melee attack with it.

Bye
Thanee

Thanks - I needed a smile!

 

[the Jester]

The line test, taken to the logical extreme, on a planet (vs. an infinite plane or other 'open' geometry world), means that you can always draw a line that leads to any two pcs flanking any opponent- you may have to keep drawing the line until it has circled the planet umpteen times, but eventually you'll make your connection.

Hmm, I take it back- that's not a straight line anymore, is it?

Never mind.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Its fixed simply by stating that the when testing if a Formian is Flanked, you must check to see if all Formian's would be Flanked if they were subject to an attack at that exact moment.

Which would be an odd rule - it's recursive. Is Formian A flanked? Well, that depends on whether or not Formian B is flanked. Is Formian B flanked? Well, that depends on whether or not Formian A is flanked ...

Etc.

Silly argument, Flanking if for Formians!

And tricks are for ruleslawyers!

In terms of "Would I ever do this in a game," the answer is, "Eh, probably not." I might allow a rogue / anyone in a game I'm DMing to do this, but I certainly wouldn't argue this point with the DM. That's what this board is for!

EDIT: Durn typos.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hmm, I take it back- that's not a straight line anymore, is it?

You got it!