Can you flank with a ranged weapon?

[TheEvil]

Because the test isn't "do you have a melee weapon?"

It's, "Are you making a melee attack?"

As the non-Ranged side keeps pointing out, the first sentence says "When making a melee attack ..."

Therefore, if they are right, then you are only considered flanking - and the defender is only flanked - when you make that melee attack.

Since, in your example, at any given time, either 1 is "making a melee attack," or 2 is "making a melee attack," or 3 is ""making a melee attack." At no point are 1 and 2 both making melee attacks. Thus, at any given point, either A or B is flanked - but never both.

Therefore, A and B can never be flanked.

I don't follow. Nothing in the text for flanking says that the defender is only flanked during the attack. It says what the bonus is when you attack someone who is flanked.

Addendium to formian question: What if Adventurer #1 was using two weapons, full attacks, and splits his attacks between Formian A and Formian B?

 

[TheEvil]

I see no murk here.

The SRD says that:

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is [B]threatened[/B] by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

Only a creature or character that [B]threatens[/B] the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

I added the bold and copiedthe appropriate sections. The SRD also says (in the section on attacks of opportunity that:

You [B]threaten[/B] all squares into which you can make a [B]melee[/B] attack.

RAW: Short of special feats, you can only threaten with melee weapons. For a creature to be flanked, it must have characters on either side who pass the line test, both of whom must also be in a position to make a melee attack against them. Where is the confusion?

Please never post that way again. Ever. It screws up the screen so that it extends beyond the bounds of the monitor.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I don't follow. Nothing in the text for flanking says that the defender is only flanked during the attack. It says what the bonus is when you attack someone who is flanked.

And how do you determine whether or not someone is flanked? And, moreover, if someone is flanked, aren't I flanking them?

The key point is that those who insist that it can only be done with melee attacks point to the very first sentence as their proof: "When making a melee attack ..."

This supporting evidence has a major problem:

It means you are only flanking during your own melee attack, because that's the only period in time to which "When making a melee attack..." can apply.

 

[Pinotage]

The rules as written indicate that you can actually flank while using a ranged weapon, but then you wouldn't get the flanking bonus which you only get while making a melee attack. However, I'd never play it that way, and I've never met anybody who does. So I've skewed the poll and voted no, even though the rules probably support that you can.

Pinotage

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

I agree.

RAW: Short of special feats, you can only threaten with melee weapons. For a creature to be flanked, it must have characters on either side who pass the line test, both of whom must also be in a position to make a melee attack against them. Where is the confusion?

Where, exactly, does it say that I - the one currently attacking - need to threaten my opponent? I admit, the rules do say that you - the guy helping me get a flanking bonus - must threaten the defender if and only if I'm worried about getting a flanking bonus.

But, again, what does getting a particular bonus on an attack roll have to do with flanking? Unless you want to argue that you're only flanking when you get the bonus - which was true in 3.0, and caused non-Flankable formians et al.

 

[Artoomis]

Because the test isn't "do you have a melee weapon?"

It's, "Are you making a melee attack?"

As the non-Ranged side keeps pointing out, the first sentence says "When making a melee attack ..."

Therefore, if they are right, then you are only considered flanking - and the defender is only flanked - when you make that melee attack.

In your example, at any given time, either 1 is "making a melee attack," or 2 is "making a melee attack," or 3 is "making a melee attack." At no point are 1 and 2 both making melee attacks. Thus, at any given point, either A or B is flanked - but never both.

Therefore, A and B can never be flanked.

EDIT: For Grammah.

Wrong.

Reminder: 1A2B3

Let's keep it simple, and assume 1,2, and 3 (PCs) are all using longswords (a melee weapon) on the formians (A&B).

Round 1:

PC 2 obviously threatens both A&B
PC 1 gets a flanking bonus to A
PC 3 gets a flanking bonus to B

Both A&B are flanked so long as one of the attackers does not move to somewhere else.
Simple, eh?

BTW: PC 2 also gets a flanking bonus to either A or B or both (with mutliple attacks)

Okay, now, what do you say I did wrong?

I see no "wonkiness" here at all.

 

[Sledge]

The problem here seems to be that flanking is different from getting the bonus. In the formian situation the ability:
"Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are."
means that the group (i.e. local only) cannot be flanked unless all individuals would fit the rules. However we only have an explicit ruling on flanking during an attack. Since this attack only applies to 1 opponent usually we have a situation where Formians could be read as unflankable as long as there is more than one.
On the other hand you could read flanked as any situation where an attacker could gain a flanking bonus if it was their turn to attack. In this case a situation of 1A2B3 would mean that both A and B are flanked. However the rules in this case are rather inexplicit.

 

[Sledge]

Artoomis what you missed is that the Flanking bonus is only gained during their attack. Not during the whole round.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Both A&B are flanked so long as one of the attackers does not move to somewhere else.
Simple, eh?

Uh, no.

What rule are you using to determine that they are flanked? Lay it out for me, step by step.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Artoomis what you missed is that the Flanking bonus is only gained during their attack. Not during the whole round.

Exactly.