D&D 4E Careful Shot vs Twin Strike....No Contest (4e spoilers)

[Makaze]

Actually, RoB only says "... make a secondary attack." The 2nd attack is conditional on what weapon you're wielding, not if you hit or miss. So, again, just 1 secondary attack.

But the secondary attack is indented under the Hit block meaning, at least to me it's a function of hitting with it.

Look at Sweeping Blow, the weapon effect is above the hit block because that happen regardless of hitting. Or Dance of Steel, clearly that only takes effect if you hit the target with the attack.

They really could have made some of these more clear.

 

[Makaze]

In fact, when some of the powers started becoming available and one of my friends saw some of them, his first comment was that he didn't know why anyone would take a power that did 2 attacks for 1[w] damage when you could do one attack that did 2[w]. Of course you'd want to only roll once for more damage, you might miss with one of your two attacks if you rolled twice.(that's what he said at least, I argued that at least you'd have half damage if you missed with one, but he wasn't convinced)

It's just that a lot of people would rather take a larger chance of missing in exchange for big numbers on their damage(and yes, I know that 1[w]|+str plus 1[w]+str is more damage than 2[w]+str, but most people don't realize that)

So you're saying that because things feel right to the, we'll be polite and call them "mathematically disadvantaged", that everything is A-OK? That just brings us back to the concept of rules mastery, something that was explicitly stated as a design goal to weed out.

 

[chaotix42]

Don't look into the fact that the Secondary Target entry is indented. Except for Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning they're all like that.

Anyway, if you read Rain of Blows closely, in the Hit section of the power it doesn't say "Make a secondary attack." RoB's secondary attack is conditional, and you get it if you're wielding the correct weapon and have a high enough Dex, whether your first two blows hit or miss.

 

[Makaze]

Don't look into the fact that the Secondary Target entry is indented. Except for Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning they're all like that.

Anyway, if you read Rain of Blows closely, in the Hit section of the power it doesn't say "Make a secondary attack." RoB's secondary attack is conditional, and you get it if you're wielding the correct weapon and have a high enough Dex, whether your first two blows hit or miss.

It really feels like 3 or 4 different people wrote these things and no one went back over them for consistencies sake. Now that I say that, it's probably what happened. There are a few that have the secondary attack in the Effect: block, same indention as Hit:. Assuming it works as you say (not totally convinced one way or another) That would be a good place to put that conditional, not indented under the Hit: block.

Maybe it's the programmer in me but indentions matter, in properly formatted code indentions indicate nesting of blocks. If they did intentionally ignore their indention convention then they missed a golden opurtunity in providing some clarity.

 

[keterys]

I wonder if RoB was meant to just be one primary and one secondary attack, and not two primaries which each spawn secondaries? It's a problem similar to Battle Pyres.

Sure seems likely to me.

 

[chaotix42]

It really feels like 3 or 4 different people wrote these things and no one went back over them for consistencies sake. Now that I say that, it's probably what happened. There are a few that have the secondary attack in the Effect: block, same indention as Hit:. Assuming it works as you say (not totally convinced one way or another) That would be a good place to put that conditional, not indented under the Hit: block.

Maybe it's the programmer in me but indentions matter, in properly formatted code indentions indicate nesting of blocks. If they did intentionally ignore their indention convention then they missed a golden opurtunity in providing some clarity.

Agreed 100%. I also think it would have helped if those powers that could only target 1 creature on their secondary effect said Secondary Target, and those that can affect "any creature," "every creature," etc. said Secondary Targets. Almost every power that mas multiple targets for its secondary says Secondary Target. : /

I honestly think that any Secondary Target of "One creature" only gets one hit. Otherwise Battle Pyre is like stupidly nasty.

 

[Makaze]

Yeah, just read Battle Pyre. As written it seems completely broken. But at least there the intention is pretty clear. You hit them all with the primary and then once this turn and every turn you sustain it you make one secondary against someone affected by the primary.

RoB on the other hand there are at least 3 fairly reasonable interpretations.

2 primaries + 2 secondaries - Way overpowered
2 primaries + 1 secondary - A bit too good with the right weapon, balanced without.
1 primary + 1 secondary - 2 attacks is a misprint. Balanced power with the right weapon, lame without.

 

[Vendark]

RoB on the other hand there are at least 3 fairly reasonable interpretations.

2 primaries + 2 secondaries - Way overpowered
2 primaries + 1 secondary - A bit too good with the right weapon, balanced without.
1 primary + 1 secondary - 2 attacks is a misprint. Balanced power with the right weapon, lame without.

I'm pretty confident that interpetation #2 is the intended one, but I'm looking forward to official clarification.

 

[Samurai]

I wonder if RoB was meant to just be one primary and one secondary attack, and not two primaries which each spawn secondaries? It's a problem similar to Battle Pyres.

Looking at Rain of Blows, I think that's correct. You get 1 attack, and if you are using the right weapon and have 15+ dex, you get a second attack against the same or a different foe.

 

[Samurai]

But the secondary attack is indented under the Hit block meaning, at least to me it's a function of hitting with it.

Look at Sweeping Blow, the weapon effect is above the hit block because that happen regardless of hitting. Or Dance of Steel, clearly that only takes effect if you hit the target with the attack.

They really could have made some of these more clear.

I agree they could be clearer, but here's how I read it:

If there is a bonus to hit due to a certain weapon or condition, they put it before the "Hit" effect because they wanted it to be read in order. First the line for what attack vs what defense, then the line for the effects of a hit, then the effects of a miss.

If the weapon/condition/bonus effect affects only a Hit, it is listed with the Hit listing. For instance, Steel Serpent Strike says that a target is slowed if he is hit (because it's in the Hit entry).

However, Dance of Steel lists the target being slowed not under Hit, but under Weapon. Nowhere does it say the blow must hit for the target to be slowed. So the Slow effect occurs regardless of a hit or miss, if you are using the proper weapon. And that is why it is considered an upgrade from Steel Serpent Strike.