D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

9th level CME +12d8 damage on attack
8th level scorching ray, 9 rays for 2d6 damage

that is 9 attacks for 2d6+12d8, with advantage+elven accuracy 87,5% chance to hit, 14,3% chance to crit
average damage per attack: 62,1
9 attacks: 550 damage

you can still add to that dragon sorcerer damage bonus, empower metamagic, elemental adept that is treating 1's as 2's, with 126 dice rolled, it will be a few of them, possible spell attack bonus magic item.

We know that CME is broken. So no need to spam it in every thread.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think maybe you are thinking of UK? I mentioned mass only in the context of the massive size of the dragon. I never mentioned velocity as was never really looking at is a physics thing.

I mentioned velocity, because I fear a bullet flying at high speed towards me more than a slow moving truck.

These are fantasy creatures after all. This, for me, is about the what the threat level of dragons attacks should be IMO.

Ok. I equaled size with mass. My bad. Forgot that most real life fire breathing dragon are full of oxygen and inflammable gas severely reducing their weight.

My question to you, which you still refuse to answer it seems, which is more threaten to you as a PC, option 1 or option 2:

1. Taking 52 damage
2. Taking 28 damage

Without context, the question can't be answered.

I'd gladly take the risk of being hit once with 52 damage than being hit several times with 28 damage.

If I have 55 hp, 28 damage look scarier as two hits are equally deadly as 2 hits with 52 damage.

See, you wanted context for the nail example, I need context for those numbers. And since you can't provide the full context for the 28 damage until we see the second half of the stat block, you should stop accusing me of dodging a question.

 

[abirdcall]

Lethality for a single character is a complete irrelevance at Epic Levels. It doesn't mean anything. The deceased character will be back on their feet before the party get done counting the treasure.

If Highly difficult encounters don't have a possibility of a TPK then they should not be described as Highly Difficult. Not saying the PCs shouldn't have an advantage, but maybe a 25-35% chance of things going sideways for the whole party if they make extremely bad decisions or face terrible bad luck.

If the best thing a Highly Difficult Encounter might achieve is "maybe" killing one character then it represents no threat at all.



Going by the XP Award it fills the XP Budget for a party of 5 x L17 characters, 4 x L18 characters, 4 x L19 characters (encountered in its Lair) and 3 x L20 characters (again encountered in its lair). That sounds like a Solo monster to me.



Potentially so does every other monster. But the XP Reward says its a Highly difficult encounter as a Solo monster.



Other challenges guaranteed to be even weaker encounters...or as Epic Characters might say, "Speed Bumps".



Hardly a game changer.



If it can avoid dying in 2 rounds maybe it can return to fight another day when the PCs will likely be even more powerful.

So your issue isn't that the dragon is too weak or poorly designed, it is that the DMG encounter difficulty description has language you find imprecise?

As to the latter part of your post, if DMs are playing CR 20+ monsters as though they are loan ogres ambushed by PCs looking for the bounty, then yeah, they're not much of a threat.

High level play is labour intensive for the DM and there is no getting around it.

Level 17+, Tier 4, is assumed to be adventures that affect the fates of entire planes. Yes, the characters are incredibly powerful at that point. An ancient dragon is not, narratively speaking, a threat at that level. That is more for Tier 3.

 

[Upper_Krust]

While I like a lot of what you are doing here. I am 100% sure this breaks the DPR budget. Could DPR budget's be raised.

Yes my apologies, that would be for an Epic Tier game using 'God Rules' which has slightly higher than average damage due to a change in magic weapon damage needed to balance martial classes from epic tier and above.

Converted back to standard 5e and the damage would be 3/4ths...ie. 9d4 claw and 9d12 bite not 12d4/12d12. 21d8 breath etc.

Yes, but we are talking about a predefined system. So I like to find better ways to design the monster within the constraints. I mean we can always just throw more at it, but what does CR even mean then. Or are you suggesting it should be a higher CR?

No, same CR.

Edit: I should add I don't advocate converting the damage back, better to just adopt the new magic weapon damage (each + adds the same base damage again, ie. A +1 longsword deals 2d8, instead of 1d8+1, etc.) ;-)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Wow. I find that a bold claim. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but... harsh.

Harsh but fair. Even unoptimized Epic PC's have ways to negate death. The solo enemy needs to have a decent chance of dropping the average PC each round. Otherwise the monster loses everytime.

Again, not entirely disagreeing with your damage... but dee fours!? Twelve of them sounds very cumbersome at the table to me. Yuck.

Well that's what average damage totals are listed for...Although it should have been d6, my mistake.

As a design rule of thumb I use d8's as the overall average. So if I have 2 different attacks d6 is paired with d10. D4 is paired with d12. Although I forgot it was 3 attacks in this case, so d6 + d6 + d12 = average d8.

For the gold Dragon design it has small claws for the size of its head.

 

[Upper_Krust]

So your issue isn't that the dragon is too weak or poorly designed, it is that the DMG encounter difficulty description has language you find imprecise?

In a roundabout way, yes.

2024 Encounter building rules are much better than 2014's.

But, all that falls apart if the monsters don't pack the required punch.

As to the latter part of your post, if DMs are playing CR 20+ monsters as though they are loan ogres ambushed by PCs looking for the bounty, then yeah, they're not much of a threat.

All things being equal DM/monster ingenuity likely to be equalized by Player/PC ingenuity and prep.

High level play is labour intensive for the DM and there is no getting around it.

There are ways to mitigate all Epic Tier play issues.

Level 17+, Tier 4, is assumed to be adventures that affect the fates of entire planes.

Yes, I'm familiar with that nonsensical hyperbole.

However, For characters to be able to safeguard the planes they would first need to be able to defeat something that can physically threaten the fate of a plane. Given that no such monster has yet been published which can actually do that (including the damp squib that is is Vecna) we can assume calling Epic Tier PCs multiversal heroes is a joke told amongst the Gods.

Yes, the characters are incredibly powerful at that point. An ancient dragon is not, narratively speaking, a threat at that level. That is more for Tier 3.

An ancient Dragon is more powerful than any Epic Tier PC*. Which means it should be a match for multiple Epic Tier PCs. Exactly how many depends on the individual and whether they go 'nova' or not.

In my opinion a CR24 Dragon should be a 50/50 match for 4 Epic Tier PCs with the caveat the PCs can skew the outcome if one or more go nova. So the advantage is always in the hands of the PCs.

*Except my Level 20 Fighter now with 8 epic boons, he solos the dragon in 2, but that's another story.

 

[Just Passing Through]

In a roundabout way, yes.

2024 Encounter building rules are much better than 2014's.

But, all that falls apart if the monsters don't pack the required punch.



All things being equal DM/monster ingenuity likely to be equalized by Player/PC ingenuity and prep.



There are ways to mitigate all Epic Tier play issues.



Yes, I'm familiar with that nonsensical hyperbole.

However, For characters to be able to safeguard the planes they would first need to be able to defeat something that can physically threaten the fate of a plane. Given that no such monster has yet been published which can actually do that (including the damp squib that is is Vecna) we can assume calling Epic Tier PCs multiversal heroes is a joke told amongst the Gods.



An ancient Dragon is more powerful than any Epic Tier PC*. Which means it should be a match for multiple Epic Tier PCs. Exactly how many depends on the individual and whether they go 'nova' or not.

In my opinion a CR24 Dragon should be a 50/50 match for 4 Epic Tier PCs with the caveat the PCs can skew the outcome if one or more go nova. So the advantage is always in the hands of the PCs.

*Except my Level 20 Fighter now with 8 epic boons, he solos the dragon in 2, but that's another story.

Edit

 

[dave2008]

See, you wanted context for the nail example, I need context for those numbers. And since you can't provide the full context for the 28 damage until we see the second half of the stat block, you should stop accusing me of dodging a question.

I am not talking about gold dragons and empyreans when I asked you about the damage. I was trying to make the context irrelevant, I was just talking about abstract damage. I apologize if that wasn't clear. We are talking about a game, not real life. That is why I mentioned players. So let me be more clear:

Your character is hit by an attack. Would you rather that attack deal 50 damage or 25 damage?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am not talking about gold dragons and empyreans when I asked you about the damage. I was trying to make the context irrelevant, I was just talking about abstract damage. I apologize if that wasn't clear. We are talking about a game, not real life. That is why I mentioned players. So let me be more clear:

Your character is hit by an attack. Would you rather that attack deal 50 damage or 25 damage?

Ok. Now I indeed refuse my answer since that is obvious. But without context completely irrelevant.

 

[dave2008]

that certainly is a problem, but unless a dragon always has antimagic field active, it can be done.
but nothing is 100% as usual.

even best plans fall before d20, hehe.

That is pesonally not how I would adjudicate that combination of spells, but it does appear to be RAW. However, if a PC is spending an 8th and 9th level spell on an attack that is likely to fail. I'm ok that with that. Of course the dragon's legendary actions / reaction could make this irrelevant too, we don't know yet.