D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Apologies for originally missing this reply UngeheuerLich.



What if we compare it to the Claws of a Medium Size Ghast which deal 2d6? Does the 200 foot long, 100 ton dragon with a massive claw far bigger than an entire ghast itself dealing only 2d8 seem appropriate if the ghast's claws deal 2d6?



What if we stab it in the eye?



Some people have early copies, presumably the Gold Dragon will be fully revealed soon enough - at least its got us all talking.



Okay, but it has multiple Legendary Resistance uses.



Yes, its initiative is high, maybe they are thinking these gargantuan dragons are fast and wriggling like eels but flying through the sky.



I suppose. The save DC is very tough to hit.

But again, just to reiterate, least fun monster ability for PCs to face.



I still think they give us a good guideline for whats to come.

Maybe the WotC thinking is Legendary Actions should now outshine the regular Actions...?



I'm not saying Controllers cannot be scary - indeed I think the Banishment IS a very scary attack. I just think everything else is lacklustre.



It cannot drop the PC with even the lowest amount of HP if they fail the save.



The likelihood is the other breath weapon is just the same as the 2014 breath weapon (except the two run on different recharges).

I 100% agree.

 

[Just Passing Through]

Some combination of Inspiration, Indomitable and Luck.

Though its still a very tricky save, so I'd probably hope to just kill the dragon in the first round (which would require 8 hits; one of which needs to be a crit). In fairness my character has been unbalanced since it picked up the Blaster Rifle and Power Armour in Stonehell Level 9 (although we did win a virtually impossible fight against four "ED-209's" each dealing 20d6/20d6/28d6 per round to claim those items in the Astronaut's Tomb...for those familiar with the Mega-Dungeon ).



I agree and its a flaw in the design that becomes extremely pronounced at the Epic Tier (solution below).



Yes the ridiculous disparity between Strong Ability Score DC's and Weak Ability Score Saves (with no Proficiency) needs addressed at the Epic Tier or the game falls apart.

If not addressed it becomes even more compounded in the Immortal Tier - although we can mitigate that by making ability score increases (for the Immortal Ranks) affect all ability scores equally.



Yes, in two ways:

1. At Epic Tier Proficiency bonus is added to all saves (the Proficiency Bonus is added to a number of Ability Scores equal to the Proficiency Bonus - so with a +6 Bonus it adds to all ability scores).

2. Hero-deities (Divine Rank 1* ) and above get Legendary Resistance themselves

*The next "level" after 20th

Edit

 

[Upper_Krust]

Wholeheartedly agree with all of this. It is refreshing to see someone else who understands the nuances and difficulties inherent in epic level 5e play. As someone who has played for and DMed for epic level characters in every edition of the game, I understand many of those issues all too well.

5th Edition isn't the worst for Epic Tier play, but the saving throw problem needs plugged right away. I also dislike the way Magic Weapon damage is handled. But both those are extremely easy fixes.

That being said, I am wary of giving PCs legendary resistance for multiple reasons.

Hopefully I can get you to trust me on it.

It is a mechanic I dislike on both sides of the table (and I have ran multiple variants to greater success),

Would be interested in hearing about them.

and with everyone already getting prof in all saves seems like it might be overkill. The auto success nature of it has always bothered me, it reduces the number of options available in the toolboxes of both players and DMs for providing challenges,

I don't want to give everything away at this juncture but I have a few uses for Legendary Resistance beyond the obvious.

and in a system that scales as high as your own seemingly does leads to a lot of questions.

30 Divine Ranks and galaxies will be probably be getting back-handed into oblivion at around the halfway mark.

Can a hero-deity just shrug off multiple reality warping effects thrown by an overgod? What about from something greater than an overgod?

Well a couple of things on this.

Firstly, not everything grants a save. there are spells and magic item effects that simply do not grant a save - largely these are built (like Power Word Stun/Kill) on a hit point basis. Here you can use Legendary Resistance to grant a save (not auto succeed).

Secondly, higher dimensional beings (such as 4D Overgods) have an auto Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic (and these things stack/cancel in my rules). Here you can use Legendary Resistance to cancel a Disadvantage (not auto succeed).

Discussion of legendary resistance aside, I am quite curious about your system.

Well I am hoping to announce the Kickstarter for the Spring shortly. So getting the new website done (Squarespace is more fiddly than I had hoped), Kickstarter readied (my first and thus comes with all the newbie doubts) and finishing the last 50 pages (of a 400 page book) consumes most of my free time.

How it works, how you expect it to play out, and whether you have done any play testing with it yet. Nothing beats experience at the table when it comes to identifying pain points and potential fixes in regards to home brewed or custom content.

I totally agree with all that, playtesting has been limited (imagine one person had to do the whole Player's Handbook - including design and, largely the art), but I am confident the full release will be as good as other product on the market.

I don't want to derail this thread, here is the thread link for the GOD Rules: Player's Guide although, just to add a lot of the information and content has changed in the 6 months since the thread was started.

God Rules: Players Guide (5e)

While still over a month away from release (I know, sorry), I thought I would share the cover, logo and title of the new book and see what you all thought. Cover art is by Carlos Villas (though I have made a few tweaks to the runes myself). I am working on the new website and will hopefully get...

www.enworld.org

 

[Chaosmancer]

I wasn't. I was taking the average for four 18th level characters including a Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Fighter. Approx. 600 HP between them.

If we swap one for a Barbarian then the HP skews upwards.

NB. The Dragon XP makes it a Highly Difficult threat for FIVE Level 17 PCs, 4 Level 18 PCs (hence I used Level 18 as a guideline ).

Okay, so we assume fighter has +5 con, rogue, cleric, and wizard have +2. That gets approximately 600 between all four... but then you must account for the fact that the Gold Dragon isn't dealing 71 damage with their breath weapon. They are dealing about 178 on average, which is pretty darn close to 1/3 of the party's total health. And even if you feel that is a bit high (maybe you want to throw fire resistance on the wizard) even if you get it down to 1/4 of the party's total health, that is significant. Additionally, that health is unevenly distributed.

So you are saying on its turn it has pretty much no chance of killing even the weakest character!?

Absorb Elements and Shield pretty much de rigeur. I don't see its standard attacks as a problem - Banishment though IS a major problem (due to the flaw in how 5e saves work).

Absorb elements can reduce the damage the wizard takes, yes. But shield? Your standard wizard isn't going to be getting much higher than a 22 AC with Shield, and three or more attacks at +17 to hit? That means the dragon needs to roll a 5 or better WITH shield. And if the wizard has about 90 hp, then that is potentially dead in two rounds (if we truly want to be vicious about the fight)

And, again, the 71 is an average damage. The max damage of the fire breath is 130, which kills the wizard and the cleric from my example if they fail the save. Not that I think it is really necessary for the Dragon to drop a PC every single turn.

The Banishment is certainly an issue (due to the current rules) and one of the least fun abilities to have.

Dropping a PC to 0 hp on round one before they have a chance to do anything is also unfun. Yet you have no problem calling the dragon weak because it seemingly can't do that. Powerful abilities are often not fun to be hit with. That's part of them being powerful.

The PCs will likely have some way of healing too.

Yes, and they will need it. But your assumption of a solo dragon lasting only three or four rounds is predicated on the DM only using the average health (it is perfectly in the rules to set the DRagon's hp as high as 812) and having no healing. It is rather fundamental to your argument that the dragon is too weak and needs to hit harder.

I don't see any problems other than the Banishment ( a.k.a. you sit this Encounter out and go make the pizza ).

Could be the Legendary Actions dramatically improve things; but WotC have let down High-level Play with every book released since 2014, I'm still holding out hope for the 2025 Monster Manual...but this half a Gold Dragon stat-block has added a Disadvantage to the save.

You don't see half the part being bloodied or potentially killed in a single move, with three legendary actions in the wings, as in any way a "problem" the party will need to deal with? I'm not approaching this as "this ancient dragon will immediately roflstomp an 18th level party" that's obviously not going to happen, but this looks like it would be a hard fight with lots of dramatic moments. And that is from HALF the statblock.

I think you are vastly overestimating the resilience of a party, in the face of that +19 to initiative and legendary actions.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

5th Edition isn't the worst for Epic Tier play, but the saving throw problem needs plugged right away. I also dislike the way Magic Weapon damage is handled. But both those are extremely easy fixes.

I don't think it is a saving throw problem. The problem lies in abilities that still don't give a save every round.

I thought about fixing it by giving proficiency bonus to saving throws that require a single save prof bonus to the roll.

For abilities of epic monsters that allow for a save every round, I'd prefer giving a cumulative escape bonus. So you don't resist aitomatically, but getting out gets easier and easier. Maybe the bonus needs to be +5/round to actually matter. Maybe make it +prof bonus per round.

So:
single effect spells get + prof bonus immediately.

Save end effects get cumulative +prof bonus starting at +0 at the initial save.

Hopefully I can get you to trust me on it.

PC's can get legendary resistance for mind affecting spells at level 4. (Mage slayer!).

Would be interested in hearing about them.



I don't want to give everything away at this juncture but I have a few uses for Legendary Resistance beyond the obvious.



30 Divine Ranks and galaxies will be probably be getting back-handed into oblivion at around the halfway mark.



Well a couple of things on this.

Firstly, not everything grants a save. there are spells and magic item effects that simply do not grant a save - largely these are built (like Power Word Stun/Kill) on a hit point basis. Here you can use Legendary Resistance to grant a save (not auto succeed).

Secondly, higher dimensional beings (such as 4D Overgods) have an auto Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic (and these things stack/cancel in my rules). Here you can use Legendary Resistance to cancel a Disadvantage (not auto succeed).



Well I am hoping to announce the Kickstarter for the Spring shortly. So getting the new website done (Squarespace is more fiddly than I had hoped), Kickstarter readied (my first and thus comes with all the newbie doubts) and finishing the last 50 pages (of a 400 page book) consumes most of my free time.



I totally agree with all that, playtesting has been limited (imagine one person had to do the whole Player's Handbook - including design and, largely the art), but I am confident the full release will be as good as other product on the market.

I don't want to derail this thread, here is the thread link for the GOD Rules: Player's Guide although, just to add a lot of the information and content has changed in the 6 months since the thread was started.

God Rules: Players Guide (5e)

While still over a month away from release (I know, sorry), I thought I would share the cover, logo and title of the new book and see what you all thought. Cover art is by Carlos Villas (though I have made a few tweaks to the runes myself). I am working on the new website and will hopefully get...

www.enworld.org

 

[Queer Venger]

wow!!! Legendary resistance at higher than 3 and 5 in its lair?!?!?!? And it's only CR 24?!?!?!? So happy to see this.

 

[Sulicius]

Loving the theory crafting so far. I can’t wait to give these monsters a test drive! Maybe I will test the empyrean soon…

 

[Upper_Krust]

Okay, so we assume fighter has +5 con, rogue, cleric, and wizard have +2. That gets approximately 600 between all four... but then you must account for the fact that the Gold Dragon isn't dealing 71 damage with their breath weapon. They are dealing about 178 on average, which is pretty darn close to 1/3 of the party's total health. And even if you feel that is a bit high (maybe you want to throw fire resistance on the wizard) even if you get it down to 1/4 of the party's total health, that is significant. Additionally, that health is unevenly distributed.

Well even if the PCs...

A: Don't know they are facing a dragon
B: All lose initiative
C: Are bunched up tight enough so they all get hit by the breath weapon
D. None have fire resistance as standard or Absorb Elements
E. All fail their saves

...I still don't see 71 damage a big deal.

...Cleric casts Mass Heal.

Absorb elements can reduce the damage the wizard takes, yes. But shield? Your standard wizard isn't going to be getting much higher than a 22 AC with Shield, and three or more attacks at +17 to hit?

All of which do damage mitigated by Absorb Elements.

That means the dragon needs to roll a 5 or better WITH shield. And if the wizard has about 90 hp, then that is potentially dead in two rounds (if we truly want to be vicious about the fight.

Admittedly I don't play Wizards very often but don't most people consider them the most powerful class?

And, again, the 71 is an average damage. The max damage of the fire breath is 130, which kills the wizard and the cleric from my example if they fail the save.

In my experience the average is typically around the average. It might be 15-20% lower or 15-20% higher, it won't deviate by much.

Not that I think it is really necessary for the Dragon to drop a PC every single turn.

Only if it wants to win.

Dropping a PC to 0 hp on round one before they have a chance to do anything is also unfun.

Depends on the circumstances.

If the character does something stupid (ie. get surrounded rather than fight in a tight corridor) and they go down; then it was their fault.

If a party go into a fight with a dragon and bunch up so they all get hit by the breath; then it was their fault.

But If one character loses initiative and gets targeted at the start of the fight with Banishment with a Charisma DC 24 which they might only pass on a roll of 20 (because 5e has a serious, if easily fixable, flaw with saving throws) then that to me is both unfun and unfair.

Yet you have no problem calling the dragon weak because it seemingly can't do that. Powerful abilities are often not fun to be hit with. That's part of them being powerful.

That's another thing that annoys me about the change from Claw/Claw/Bite to Rend x3. There is no 'build-up' to the big (bite) attack - they all do the same damage. Psychologically if the GM keeps the "big" attack for the end they build up the suspense and sense of dread among the players. That's gone now.

Yes, and they will need it. But your assumption of a solo dragon lasting only three or four rounds is predicated on the DM only using the average health (it is perfectly in the rules to set the DRagon's hp as high as 812) and having no healing. It is rather fundamental to your argument that the dragon is too weak and needs to hit harder.

I suppose the GM 'could' give it 812 HP instead of 546, just like the party composition could be 4 Fighters or Barbarians all with the Toughness feat. But let's stick with averages here. Plus the monsters CR is largely determined by it having 546 HP.

I don't have a problem with monsters having healing; though its very unlikely that using healing (rather than attacking) will be the optimal choice for any given monster.

Personally I prefer monsters to have Regeneration with some sort of Vulnerability 'off switch' the PCs can exploit (rather than healing that is).

You don't see half the part being bloodied or potentially killed in a single move, with three legendary actions in the wings, as in any way a "problem" the party will need to deal with?

No because the likelihood is that they won't all lose Init, they won't all get caught in the breath, they won't all fail the save, one or more will have ways to mitigate fire damage...and most of that predicates they won't even know they are facing a dragon before-hand and have no prep in place.

I'm not approaching this as "this ancient dragon will immediately roflstomp an 18th level party" that's obviously not going to happen, but this looks like it would be a hard fight with lots of dramatic moments.

Unless there is something drastic in the Legendary Actions I think the dragon get's curb-stomped, but then I play a lot of Epic Tier.

Hypothetically we could maybe build a party of Level 18 characters from scratch and pit them against the dragon and it might be very close, BUT any player that has played their character up from the lower levels and has honed their tactics will have such a massive advantage over someone just running a character for a playtest.

And that is from HALF the statblock.

Hopefully that's just the poor half.

I think you are vastly overestimating the resilience of a party, in the face of that +19 to initiative and legendary actions.

+16 I thought.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I don't think it is a saving throw problem. The problem lies in abilities that still don't give a save every round.

Its clearly a saving throw problem in the case of the Banishment spell which highlights the issue perfectly.

The main issue is Saves with Low Ability Scores with no Proficiency vs. DC's with High Ability Scores + Proficiency.

The gap is too big.

At the same time I think anything that allows a save should probably be repeatable every turn. Being stunned for 1 turn is annoying but tolerable if you know you get another save next turn. But being stunned for 1 minute (if you fail a save) is just a deflating bit of bad design that only serves to antagonize a player.

I thought about fixing it by giving proficiency bonus to saving throws that require a single save prof bonus to the roll.

For abilities of epic monsters that allow for a save every round, I'd prefer giving a cumulative escape bonus. So you don't resist aitomatically, but getting out gets easier and easier. Maybe the bonus needs to be +5/round to actually matter. Maybe make it +prof bonus per round.

So:
single effect spells get + prof bonus immediately.

Save end effects get cumulative +prof bonus starting at +0 at the initial save.

PC's can get legendary resistance for mind affecting spells at level 4. (Mage slayer!).

I think that might help a bit but I suspect the added complications and tracking might not be worth it.

The simpler solution is just to make PC's proficient in one ability score for every point of proficiency bonus - I would even do the same to monsters (who themselves track on a slightly slower Proficiency Bonus trajectory).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Admittedly I don't play Wizards very often but don't most people consider them the most powerful class?

They are still glass canons, and DMs may have intelligent monsters focus fire on them. Which means it all boils down to who goes first.

All of which do damage mitigated by Absorb Elements.

AE reduces average rend damage from 28 to 23 - only 18%.