D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[dave2008]

Ok. Now I indeed refuse my answer since that is obvious. But without context completely irrelevant.

It always was, my point exactly.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It always was, my point exactly.

Ok. You lost me completely. Sorry.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sure, but they could also make that 100 damage from two attacks and it would solve my issue with it. Make the rend to 50 and only allow to do two. Like I said, DPR is not the issue, I am not suggesting a change to DPR. I am suggesting an increasing the per attack damage.

Completely fair, just from your phrasing of not wanting to consider DPR, it could have been your plan to decide to three attacks at 6d8 per attack. Which would feel like bigger hits... but also would make the monster potentially FAR too deadly. Hence why I think DPR has to at least be a consideration, to make sure you don't end up with something too strong.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I agree that big creatues should attack fewer times and do bigger damage with each hit. Like if it was 30-40 damage a rend, that'd feel like I'm being hit by an ancient dragon. Right now, it's like being hit by literally a Large Sword, not a Huge or Gargantuan Claw.

Form and function are intertwined with game mechanics and indeed all art, so I get Dave's complaints.

Maybe, but I think three attacks is a pretty ferocious set-up. I've seen this with a homebrew version of a monster I used recently. They go from two big attack to three slightly weaker attacks as they lose hp, and the three attacks just feel more powerful, because while you might get one bad roll, or be able to deflect one attack, it gets harder with more attacks. Which makes it feel more powerful.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah, the idea that this dragon cannot possibly be deadly enough against a group of level 17 or 18 characters seems bizarre.

1) Why are we looking at Fighter Health? Unless there is a Barbarian in the party, a fighter with their d10 HD is one of the tankiest characters. A level 17 Wizard with a +1 con (not unusual) is going to have an average of 87 hp. A Cleric with a +2 con (not unusual) is going to have an average of 122. That means if the Dragon hits a Fire Breath attack on all three characters, and does average damage, the wizard just lost 81% of their health, and the cleric lost 58%. That isn't "five turns to kill" that is nearly dead and instantly bloodied.

2) Banishment and Weakening Breath. If you have a party of four, with two melee PCs against the old Weakening breath, you could very likely see those PCs facing disadvantage on all their attacks, and with a 22 AC to hit? That's not nothing. And that is assuming the Dragon is even IN melee range. Add to that banishment? And it is going to be hard to be dealing damage to the dragon if it can keep knocking people into another dimension.

3) Moving beyond the breath weapon, we know it has spells. And we can confidently say it has Cleric spells. What does that HP look like if they have an at-will 6th level Healing Word spell restoring 12d4+9 hp a turn? Sounds plenty horrifying to fight to me.

 

[Weiley31]

3) Moving beyond the breath weapon, we know it has spells. And we can confidently say it has Cleric spells. What does that HP look like if they have an at-will 6th level Healing Word spell restoring 12d4+9 hp a turn? Sounds plenty horrifying to fight to me.

Give it 2014 Healing Spirit and just have it Mambo Fly back and forth thru it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Yeah, the idea that this dragon cannot possibly be deadly enough against a group of level 17 or 18 characters seems bizarre.

1) Why are we looking at Fighter Health? Unless there is a Barbarian in the party, a fighter with their d10 HD is one of the tankiest characters. A level 17 Wizard with a +1 con (not unusual) is going to have an average of 87 hp. A Cleric with a +2 con (not unusual) is going to have an average of 122. That means if the Dragon hits a Fire Breath attack on all three characters, and does average damage, the wizard just lost 81% of their health, and the cleric lost 58%. That isn't "five turns to kill" that is nearly dead and instantly bloodied.

2) Banishment and Weakening Breath. If you have a party of four, with two melee PCs against the old Weakening breath, you could very likely see those PCs facing disadvantage on all their attacks, and with a 22 AC to hit? That's not nothing. And that is assuming the Dragon is even IN melee range. Add to that banishment? And it is going to be hard to be dealing damage to the dragon if it can keep knocking people into another dimension.

3) Moving beyond the breath weapon, we know it has spells. And we can confidently say it has Cleric spells. What does that HP look like if they have an at-will 6th level Healing Word spell restoring 12d4+9 hp a turn? Sounds plenty horrifying to fight to me.

As is normal for fights in D&D, the difficulty depends on party composition, player skill, DM skill (and ruthlessness) and preparedness. e.g. Does the wizard have Absorb Elements or not? Plus or minus 5 levels really is much less significant.

A fairly common occurrence is the party without decent ranged attacks. The dragon just stays in the air strafing them until they are all dead, even if the party is higher level than the dragon.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Out of curiosity, how will your fighter be able to resist the DC20+ banishment effect?

Some combination of Inspiration, Indomitable and Luck.

Though its still a very tricky save, so I'd probably hope to just kill the dragon in the first round (which would require 8 hits; one of which needs to be a crit). In fairness my character has been unbalanced since it picked up the Blaster Rifle and Power Armour in Stonehell Level 9 (although we did win a virtually impossible fight against four "ED-209's" each dealing 20d6/20d6/28d6 per round to claim those items in the Astronaut's Tomb...for those familiar with the Mega-Dungeon ).

DPR is not the biggest killer in high level play, it is saving throws. Anyone who is not a monk or paladin becomes literally unable to succeed at any saving throw they are not proficient in at high levels.

I agree and its a flaw in the design that becomes extremely pronounced at the Epic Tier (solution below).

A single cast of Psychic Scream can shut down 3/4ths of a party with no recourse or way out. It is one of the biggest difficulties I have ran into with high level play, and outside of having Gestalt pcs (which allows for characters to have almost all saving throw proficiencies) I have yet to find a way around it.

Yes the ridiculous disparity between Strong Ability Score DC's and Weak Ability Score Saves (with no Proficiency) needs addressed at the Epic Tier or the game falls apart.

If not addressed it becomes even more compounded in the Immortal Tier - although we can mitigate that by making ability score increases (for the Immortal Ranks) affect all ability scores equally.

Does your epic system address this problem?

Yes, in two ways:

1. At Epic Tier Proficiency bonus is added to all saves (the Proficiency Bonus is added to a number of Ability Scores equal to the Proficiency Bonus - so with a +6 Bonus it adds to all ability scores).

2. Hero-deities (Divine Rank 1* ) and above get Legendary Resistance themselves

*The next "level" after 20th

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yeah, the idea that this dragon cannot possibly be deadly enough against a group of level 17 or 18 characters seems bizarre.

1) Why are we looking at Fighter Health? Unless there is a Barbarian in the party, a fighter with their d10 HD is one of the tankiest characters.

I wasn't. I was taking the average for four 18th level characters including a Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Fighter. Approx. 600 HP between them.

If we swap one for a Barbarian then the HP skews upwards.

NB. The Dragon XP makes it a Highly Difficult threat for FIVE Level 17 PCs, 4 Level 18 PCs (hence I used Level 18 as a guideline ).

A level 17 Wizard with a +1 con (not unusual) is going to have an average of 87 hp. A Cleric with a +2 con (not unusual) is going to have an average of 122. That means if the Dragon hits a Fire Breath attack on all three characters, and does average damage, the wizard just lost 81% of their health, and the cleric lost 58%. That isn't "five turns to kill" that is nearly dead and instantly bloodied.

So you are saying on its turn it has pretty much no chance of killing even the weakest character!?

Absorb Elements and Shield pretty much de rigeur. I don't see its standard attacks as a problem - Banishment though IS a major problem (due to the flaw in how 5e saves work).

2) Banishment and Weakening Breath. If you have a party of four, with two melee PCs against the old Weakening breath, you could very likely see those PCs facing disadvantage on all their attacks, and with a 22 AC to hit? That's not nothing. And that is assuming the Dragon is even IN melee range. Add to that banishment? And it is going to be hard to be dealing damage to the dragon if it can keep knocking people into another dimension.

The Banishment is certainly an issue (due to the current rules) and one of the least fun abilities to have.

3) Moving beyond the breath weapon, we know it has spells. And we can confidently say it has Cleric spells. What does that HP look like if they have an at-will 6th level Healing Word spell restoring 12d4+9 hp a turn?

The PCs will likely have some way of healing too.

Sounds plenty horrifying to fight to me.

I don't see any problems other than the Banishment ( a.k.a. you sit this Encounter out and go make the pizza ).

Could be the Legendary Actions dramatically improve things; but WotC have let down High-level Play with every book released since 2014, I'm still holding out hope for the 2025 Monster Manual...but this half a Gold Dragon stat-block has added a Disadvantage to the save.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Apologies for originally missing this reply UngeheuerLich.

The empyrean is still huge. And this is what it was compared to.

What if we compare it to the Claws of a Medium Size Ghast which deal 2d6? Does the 200 foot long, 100 ton dragon with a massive claw far bigger than an entire ghast itself dealing only 2d8 seem appropriate if the ghast's claws deal 2d6?

If we go by mass alone, humans should deal no damage with weapons against dragons at all...

What if we stab it in the eye?

I want to see tge rest of tgmhe dragon stat block...

Some people have early copies, presumably the Gold Dragon will be fully revealed soon enough - at least its got us all talking.

But if you get through. Which you should. Taking away reactions is easier.

So maybe if the dragon is targeted with a low level reaction deny spell, if it is reliant on reactions, the dragon might spend a legendary resistance, while it does not if it has legendary actions instead.

Okay, but it has multiple Legendary Resistance uses.

So now with its high initiative bonus, the dragon might go first instead of last. Big difference to 5.14.

Yes, its initiative is high, maybe they are thinking these gargantuan dragons are fast and wriggling like eels but flying through the sky.

Then,if they can banish a PC, it is as good as dropping them.

I suppose. The save DC is very tough to hit.

But again, just to reiterate, least fun monster ability for PCs to face.

So without the rest of the stat block, damage numbers are irelevant.

I still think they give us a good guideline for whats to come.

Maybe the WotC thinking is Legendary Actions should now outshine the regular Actions...?

As I mentioned above. A demon we fought recently did laughable damage. But we were charmed and feared nearly constantly... Gladly we only had to survive for 5 rounds to win that fight. But it was close...

I'm not saying Controllers cannot be scary - indeed I think the Banishment IS a very scary attack. I just think everything else is lacklustre.

I don't consider dragon breath low damage.

It cannot drop the PC with even the lowest amount of HP if they fail the save.

And if the other breath delivers, there might be a good turnaround. But without the other half of the stat block, one guess is as good as the other.

The likelihood is the other breath weapon is just the same as the 2014 breath weapon (except the two run on different recharges).