D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

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They are still glass canons, and DMs may have intelligent monsters focus fire on them. Which means it all boils down to who goes first

Certainly Wizards are perhaps more dependent on prep than other classes, but is this Ancient Gold Dragon likely to be a random encounter or something they can prep for?

It seems to me the bigger the challenge the greater the likelihood the party will get to prep for it (and I'm not even saying that Prep is necessary for the PCs to win).

But even if the Wizard goes down in Round 1, there is a large chance they can be revived.

AE reduces average rend damage from 28 to 23 - only 18%.

For all attacks that round!
 

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Its clearly a saving throw problem in the case of the Banishment spell which highlights the issue perfectly.
I think the problem is the spell, not the saving throw.
The main issue is Saves with Low Ability Scores with no Proficiency vs. DC's with High Ability Scores + Proficiency.
It isba duration mechanic. Older wditions could take someone out for rounds/level, minutes/level or more.

With scaling saving throw DCs, you also increase average sticking time with level. Problem: some spells don't grant another saving throw on the next turn.

While in 3e I hated spells with saves every round, in 5e all should get that. Because duration can be scaled by that.
The gap is too big.
Only at very high level.
And only if you decide to dump some stats.

Problem is the mix of one save spells and save every round spells.
At the same time I think anything that allows a save should probably be repeatable every turn. Being stunned for 1 turn is annoying but tolerable if you know you get another save next turn. But being stunned for 1 minute (if you fail a save) is just a deflating bit of bad design that only serves to antagonize a player.
Exactly.
I think that might help a bit but I suspect the added complications and tracking might not be worth it.
Maybe.
The simpler solution is just to make PC's proficient in one ability score for every point of proficiency bonus - I would even do the same to monsters (who themselves track on a slightly slower Proficiency Bonus trajectory).
Funny idea.
Maybe half proficiency bonus to all saves rounded down would be the easiest solution...

Problem here is that everyone starts with +1 to all saves. Maybe raising DC to 9 + prof bonus would be a compromise then.
 


+16 I thought.

Looks like it is, my mistake. Getting it mixed with the other reveals

Well even if the PCs...

A: Don't know they are facing a dragon
B: All lose initiative
C: Are bunched up tight enough so they all get hit by the breath weapon
D. None have fire resistance as standard or Absorb Elements
E. All fail their saves

...I still don't see 71 damage a big deal.

...Cleric casts Mass Heal.

1) At a +16, the dragon going first is VERY likely. You would need to either have a subclass ability, and/or alert, maybe an epic boon, and a good roll. Even if the dragon doesn't go first, it is pretty darn likely to be going second.

2) Yes, that is a pretty common thing. Especially since this isn't a small area of effect. This is a 90 ft cone, that is massive. As long as the party is within 50 ft of each other, the Dragon has a good chance of hitting all of them if the dragon is on the ground. If it is in the air? They have to be only within 90 ft of each other (between the furthest two targets)

3) Yes, you can counter-play fire damage. That may not be guaranteed though, and Absorb elements on the wizard was accounted for.

4) I didn't assume they all failed their saves. I assumed that the wizard and the cleric failed a DC 24 dex save. The fighter likely passed for half and the rogue might have passed for no damage.

5) An attack whose impact is countered by a 9th level spell isn't a big deal? That's the single strongest healing spell in the game, and it can be used only once per day at these levels. Heck, who says you have it? If you fought through two or three encounters, maybe you mass healed BEFORE the fight to get up to fighting shape.

All of which do damage mitigated by Absorb Elements.

You'd reduce each hit by 4. So, instead of taking 84 damage, you would take 72. That isn't really going to save someone who is at such low hp.

Admittedly I don't play Wizards very often but don't most people consider them the most powerful class?

They aren't tanks

Only if it wants to win.

Unproven assertion that they cannot win if they do not.

Depends on the circumstances.

If the character does something stupid (ie. get surrounded rather than fight in a tight corridor) and they go down; then it was their fault.

If a party go into a fight with a dragon and bunch up so they all get hit by the breath; then it was their fault.

But If one character loses initiative and gets targeted at the start of the fight with Banishment with a Charisma DC 24 which they might only pass on a roll of 20 (because 5e has a serious, if easily fixable, flaw with saving throws) then that to me is both unfun and unfair.

No. Really no to all of that.

That's another thing that annoys me about the change from Claw/Claw/Bite to Rend x3. There is no 'build-up' to the big (bite) attack - they all do the same damage. Psychologically if the GM keeps the "big" attack for the end they build up the suspense and sense of dread among the players. That's gone now.

How do the player's know a big attack is coming? How is it not equally terrifying to have three big attacks?

I suppose the GM 'could' give it 812 HP instead of 546, just like the party composition could be 4 Fighters or Barbarians all with the Toughness feat. But let's stick with averages here. Plus the monsters CR is largely determined by it having 546 HP.

Actually, it isn't. That's why I brought up that the hp could be changed.

I don't have a problem with monsters having healing; though its very unlikely that using healing (rather than attacking) will be the optimal choice for any given monster.

Legendary actions, bonus actions, lair actions, ect

No because the likelihood is that they won't all lose Init, they won't all get caught in the breath, they won't all fail the save, one or more will have ways to mitigate fire damage...and most of that predicates they won't even know they are facing a dragon before-hand and have no prep in place.

Highest initiative for most PCs will be +%, that is an 11 pnt difference. The Breath WEapon has a massive range. I only accounted for half of them failing anyways. I even accounted for Absorb elements.

And, it sounded like, your experience is often with a homebrew system, which might tilt your expectations. For example Absorb Elements isn't in the 2024 books. So a group going "pure" 2024 doesn't have access to it.
 

Looks like it is, my mistake. Getting it mixed with the other reveals

These things are easy to miss. Its still one helluva'n initiative bonus for a Gargantuan creature, but it has that eel-like appearance than makes it appropriate.

1) At a +16, the dragon going first is VERY likely. You would need to either have a subclass ability, and/or alert, maybe an epic boon, and a good roll. Even if the dragon doesn't go first, it is pretty darn likely to be going second.

If I was always going into a fight where Initiative Order was important I'd typically use Inspiration on the roll. If there is a Rogue in the group they'll probably still win.

2) Yes, that is a pretty common thing. Especially since this isn't a small area of effect. This is a 90 ft cone, that is massive. As long as the party is within 50 ft of each other, the Dragon has a good chance of hitting all of them if the dragon is on the ground. If it is in the air? They have to be only within 90 ft of each other (between the furthest two targets).

We are assuming the dragon largely 'sneaks up on them'. But even if it does, Rogue likely saves, Fighter doesn't care, Cleric and Wizard can Absorb Elements or some other spell or magic item to mitigate the fire damage.

3) Yes, you can counter-play fire damage. That may not be guaranteed though, and Absorb elements on the wizard was accounted for.

The damage is decent against the wizard but on average does not drop even the weakest character.

4) I didn't assume they all failed their saves. I assumed that the wizard and the cleric failed a DC 24 dex save. The fighter likely passed for half and the rogue might have passed for no damage.

5) An attack whose impact is countered by a 9th level spell isn't a big deal? That's the single strongest healing spell in the game, and it can be used only once per day at these levels. Heck, who says you have it? If you fought through two or three encounters, maybe you mass healed BEFORE the fight to get up to fighting shape.

Even a Heal undoes the entire damage on one character, in fact an upcast Healing Word might undo allf the damage on a save.

The Wizard is the only character the Dragon can likely drop in the first round (and then using up most of its attacks), the Cleric will likely be able to keep the Wizard up.

You'd reduce each hit by 4. So, instead of taking 84 damage, you would take 72. That isn't really going to save someone who is at such low hp.

If it concentrates on the Wizard then it is ignoring the other characters.

They aren't tanks

Maybe the Wizard Shapechanges into an Adult Gold Dragon.

Unproven assertion that they cannot win if they do not.

I am just eyeballing things based on my years of Epic Play experience and study.

No. Really no to all of that.

I disagree, Defeating a character with high damage numbers is always the fairest way of beating them (because they have more ways 'out'), compared to having to make a very high d20 roll which is basically what the Banish is imposing upon the majority of characters.

How do the player's know a big attack is coming? How is it not equally terrifying to have three big attacks?

Once they fight one dragon they'll know its Rend, Rend, Rend or swop with ability of equal damage/effect...as in this case.

Whereas Claw/Claw/Bite has a potential build up.

Actually, it isn't. That's why I brought up that the hp could be changed.

Okay so is the dragon with 812 HP the exact same CR as the dragon with 546 HP...in your opinion?

Legendary actions, bonus actions, lair actions, ect

The previous Legendary Actions were largely irrelevant.

2014 Lair Actions:

1. Dragon has advantage on rolls for 1 round.
2. Banish (DC 15)

Highest initiative for most PCs will be +%, that is an 11 pnt difference. The Breath WEapon has a massive range. I only accounted for half of them failing anyways. I even accounted for Absorb elements.

The damage is nothing to the fighter, the Rogue saves for no damage. Maybe the Cleric or Wizard use Absorb Elements.

And, it sounded like, your experience is often with a homebrew system, which might tilt your expectations.

The vast bulk was with core 2014 + Xanathars.

My 'homebrew' suggestions are in my upcoming GOD RULES: Player's Guide - which is a book for Epic and Immortal Tier 5e play. The higher level the PCs the greater the disparity between Low Saves and High DCs becomes - hence the need for that to be fixed right away.

For example Absorb Elements isn't in the 2024 books. So a group going "pure" 2024 doesn't have access to it.

As I recall the DM used the Core + Xanathar's but no Tasha's as it was too unbalanced.
 



2014 Lair Actions:

1. Dragon has advantage on rolls for 1 round.
2. Banish (DC 15)
So the dragon in their lair has always had the abilities, the new dragons get by default.

I really liked the idea of those lair actions. I am said that they are gone. But maybe they were often missed by people when they gauged the danger of a dragon.

Advantage on all checks is nothing to sneeze at. A DC 15 Charisma saving throw is exactly the number against which saving throws in 5e should work well. Someone with high charisma and proficiency has about 80% chance to save. Someone without proficiency and low charisma has only a 25% chance to save.
And escaping with a charisma contest is also not that easy to do. So in their lair, gold dragons were always scary.

If the DC is raised to 24 as you suggest, no character has a fair chance to succeed. Sounds like a boring fight if the same character is targeted over and over again. Let see if the DC was really raised or not.

Mearls mentioned somewhere not long ago, that monster DCs were not meant to scale. I think he is right. DC should be usually 15. And maybe those effects need a lesser effect on a success.
 

So the dragon in their lair has always had the abilities, the new dragons get by default.

We don't necessarily know exactly where all the new abilities are yet.

I really liked the idea of those lair actions. I am said that they are gone. But maybe they were often missed by people when they gauged the danger of a dragon.

For Lair Actions I really like a choice of 3, then roll the first randomly and take them in order from there (that way you never get the same one twice in a row).

Advantage on all checks is nothing to sneeze at. A DC 15 Charisma saving throw is exactly the number against which saving throws in 5e should work well. Someone with high charisma and proficiency has about 80% chance to save. Someone without proficiency and low charisma has only a 25% chance to save. And escaping with a charisma contest is also not that easy to do. So in their lair, gold dragons were always scary.

I like the Advantage idea, not so keen on Banish for previous reasons but I guess it does suit the Gold Dragon's Lair.

If the DC is raised to 24 as you suggest, no character has a fair chance to succeed.

I may have misread one of the other posters. I thought it was DC 24 but that might just be the breath weapon.

Sounds like a boring fight if the same character is targeted over and over again. Let see if the DC was really raised or not.

Again I might have missed it. DC 15 is still high for a Charisma save.

Mearls mentioned somewhere not long ago, that monster DCs were not meant to scale. I think he is right. DC should be usually 15. And maybe those effects need a lesser effect on a success.

That might require rebuilding conditions from the ground up which they didn't seem to want to do for 5.5e (ie. 2024 D&D).
 

We don't necessarily know exactly where all the new abilities are yet.



For Lair Actions I really like a choice of 3, then roll the first randomly and take them in order from there (that way you never get the same one twice in a row).



I like the Advantage idea, not so keen on Banish for previous reasons but I guess it does suit the Gold Dragon's Lair.



I may have misread one of the other posters. I thought it was DC 24 but that might just be the breath weapon.



Again I might have missed it. DC 15 is still high for a Charisma save.



That might require rebuilding conditions from the ground up which they didn't seem to want to do for 5.5e (ie. 2024 D&D).
Success: not banished, but disadvantage on attack rolls.
 

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