Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!
They are still glass canons, and DMs may have intelligent monsters focus fire on them. Which means it all boils down to who goes first
AE reduces average rend damage from 28 to 23 - only 18%.
I think the problem is the spell, not the saving throw.Its clearly a saving throw problem in the case of the Banishment spell which highlights the issue perfectly.
It isba duration mechanic. Older wditions could take someone out for rounds/level, minutes/level or more.The main issue is Saves with Low Ability Scores with no Proficiency vs. DC's with High Ability Scores + Proficiency.
Only at very high level.The gap is too big.
Exactly.At the same time I think anything that allows a save should probably be repeatable every turn. Being stunned for 1 turn is annoying but tolerable if you know you get another save next turn. But being stunned for 1 minute (if you fail a save) is just a deflating bit of bad design that only serves to antagonize a player.
Maybe.I think that might help a bit but I suspect the added complications and tracking might not be worth it.
Funny idea.The simpler solution is just to make PC's proficient in one ability score for every point of proficiency bonus - I would even do the same to monsters (who themselves track on a slightly slower Proficiency Bonus trajectory).
+16 I thought.
Well even if the PCs...
A: Don't know they are facing a dragon
B: All lose initiative
C: Are bunched up tight enough so they all get hit by the breath weapon
D. None have fire resistance as standard or Absorb Elements
E. All fail their saves
...I still don't see 71 damage a big deal.
...Cleric casts Mass Heal.
All of which do damage mitigated by Absorb Elements.
Admittedly I don't play Wizards very often but don't most people consider them the most powerful class?
Only if it wants to win.
Depends on the circumstances.
If the character does something stupid (ie. get surrounded rather than fight in a tight corridor) and they go down; then it was their fault.
If a party go into a fight with a dragon and bunch up so they all get hit by the breath; then it was their fault.
But If one character loses initiative and gets targeted at the start of the fight with Banishment with a Charisma DC 24 which they might only pass on a roll of 20 (because 5e has a serious, if easily fixable, flaw with saving throws) then that to me is both unfun and unfair.
That's another thing that annoys me about the change from Claw/Claw/Bite to Rend x3. There is no 'build-up' to the big (bite) attack - they all do the same damage. Psychologically if the GM keeps the "big" attack for the end they build up the suspense and sense of dread among the players. That's gone now.
I suppose the GM 'could' give it 812 HP instead of 546, just like the party composition could be 4 Fighters or Barbarians all with the Toughness feat. But let's stick with averages here. Plus the monsters CR is largely determined by it having 546 HP.
I don't have a problem with monsters having healing; though its very unlikely that using healing (rather than attacking) will be the optimal choice for any given monster.
No because the likelihood is that they won't all lose Init, they won't all get caught in the breath, they won't all fail the save, one or more will have ways to mitigate fire damage...and most of that predicates they won't even know they are facing a dragon before-hand and have no prep in place.
Looks like it is, my mistake. Getting it mixed with the other reveals
1) At a +16, the dragon going first is VERY likely. You would need to either have a subclass ability, and/or alert, maybe an epic boon, and a good roll. Even if the dragon doesn't go first, it is pretty darn likely to be going second.
2) Yes, that is a pretty common thing. Especially since this isn't a small area of effect. This is a 90 ft cone, that is massive. As long as the party is within 50 ft of each other, the Dragon has a good chance of hitting all of them if the dragon is on the ground. If it is in the air? They have to be only within 90 ft of each other (between the furthest two targets).
3) Yes, you can counter-play fire damage. That may not be guaranteed though, and Absorb elements on the wizard was accounted for.
4) I didn't assume they all failed their saves. I assumed that the wizard and the cleric failed a DC 24 dex save. The fighter likely passed for half and the rogue might have passed for no damage.
5) An attack whose impact is countered by a 9th level spell isn't a big deal? That's the single strongest healing spell in the game, and it can be used only once per day at these levels. Heck, who says you have it? If you fought through two or three encounters, maybe you mass healed BEFORE the fight to get up to fighting shape.
You'd reduce each hit by 4. So, instead of taking 84 damage, you would take 72. That isn't really going to save someone who is at such low hp.
They aren't tanks
Unproven assertion that they cannot win if they do not.
No. Really no to all of that.
How do the player's know a big attack is coming? How is it not equally terrifying to have three big attacks?
Actually, it isn't. That's why I brought up that the hp could be changed.
Legendary actions, bonus actions, lair actions, ect
Highest initiative for most PCs will be +%, that is an 11 pnt difference. The Breath WEapon has a massive range. I only accounted for half of them failing anyways. I even accounted for Absorb elements.
And, it sounded like, your experience is often with a homebrew system, which might tilt your expectations.
For example Absorb Elements isn't in the 2024 books. So a group going "pure" 2024 doesn't have access to it.
Actually HP is the primary driver of CR. What is your logic for suggesting otherwise?Actually, it isn't. That's why I brought up that the hp could be changed.
This is one example of player skill being so critical. My players generally forget about Inspiration.If I was always going into a fight where Initiative Order was important I'd typically use Inspiration on the roll. If there is a Rogue in the group they'll probably still win.
So the dragon in their lair has always had the abilities, the new dragons get by default.2014 Lair Actions:
1. Dragon has advantage on rolls for 1 round.
2. Banish (DC 15)
So the dragon in their lair has always had the abilities, the new dragons get by default.
I really liked the idea of those lair actions. I am said that they are gone. But maybe they were often missed by people when they gauged the danger of a dragon.
Advantage on all checks is nothing to sneeze at. A DC 15 Charisma saving throw is exactly the number against which saving throws in 5e should work well. Someone with high charisma and proficiency has about 80% chance to save. Someone without proficiency and low charisma has only a 25% chance to save. And escaping with a charisma contest is also not that easy to do. So in their lair, gold dragons were always scary.
If the DC is raised to 24 as you suggest, no character has a fair chance to succeed.
Sounds like a boring fight if the same character is targeted over and over again. Let see if the DC was really raised or not.
Mearls mentioned somewhere not long ago, that monster DCs were not meant to scale. I think he is right. DC should be usually 15. And maybe those effects need a lesser effect on a success.
Success: not banished, but disadvantage on attack rolls.We don't necessarily know exactly where all the new abilities are yet.
For Lair Actions I really like a choice of 3, then roll the first randomly and take them in order from there (that way you never get the same one twice in a row).
I like the Advantage idea, not so keen on Banish for previous reasons but I guess it does suit the Gold Dragon's Lair.
I may have misread one of the other posters. I thought it was DC 24 but that might just be the breath weapon.
Again I might have missed it. DC 15 is still high for a Charisma save.
That might require rebuilding conditions from the ground up which they didn't seem to want to do for 5.5e (ie. 2024 D&D).