Classes ... Much Less Flexible than Advertised

[hong]

Shhh, don't ask.
That is a general 4E skill problem. Its impossible to not to be good. Ask the 20th level beduine water who never ahs seen a body of water before which was deeper than his knee high where he got his automatic +10 untrained ranks in swimming from.

The answer to this question, of course, is not to worry about 20th level bedouin somethings-which-you-didn't-quite-type-properly.

 

[hong]

Character background wise how did your character become Trained in Thievery if he never stole anything in his life?

Characterwise, how did a 3E rogue without any ranks in Disable Device ever get Trapfinding? If you can answer this, just apply the same reasoning.

 

[Bagpuss]

The limitation on sneak attack and some powers to particular ranged weapons bugs me most. I'm fine with limiting to "light blades" someone sneak attacking with a great axe never made huge sense. But why is a crossbow or a sling, more accurate than a longbow or shuriken?

That limitation seems unnecessary.

 

[hong]

The limitation on sneak attack and some powers to particular ranged weapons bugs me most. I'm fine with limiting to "light blades" someone sneak attacking with a great axe never made huge sense. But why is a crossbow or a sling, more accurate than a longbow or shuriken?

That limitation seems unnecessary.

That is most likely to serve as a point of differentiation between rogues and rangers. They both get to snipe, but one does it with a crossbow and the other does it with a bow.

I'd wait to see the rest of the system.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

It's probably a bit harsh to judge without seeing the ranger.

Actually, I was going to say it's probably a bit harsh to judge without seeing the entire rulebook....but, y'know..that never stopped the intertubes before!

 

[Bagpuss]

Characterwise, how did a 3E rogue without any ranks in Disable Device ever get Trapfinding? If you can answer this, just apply the same reasoning.

"Trapfinding" does actually make you any good at finding traps all it did was remove the cap, if you had no ranks (Search) you still would be useless. Skill Training does give you an ability.

Still it's the illogical restrictions (to a whole race) that bother me more than the illogical bonuses (to a limited number of builds).

 

[hong]

"Trapfinding" does actually make you any good at finding traps all it did was remove the cap, if you had no ranks (Search) you still would be useless. Skill Training does give you an ability.

A useless ability. And since you have managed to live with a useless ability sitting on your character sheet taunting you all this time, I'm sure you can live with another useless ability in 4E.

Still it's the illogical restrictions (to a whole race) that bother me more than the illogical bonuses (to a limited number of builds).

What racial restrictions?

 

[Bagpuss]

That is most likely to serve as a point of differentiation between rogues and rangers. They both get to snipe, but one does it with a crossbow and the other does it with a bow.

So Elves should play Rangers not Rogues? I thought we got rid of racial restrictions with 2nd Ed?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Erm no because playing an rogue required no multiclassing to be really effective with a short bow, or a long bow if elven. And in 3rd Ed even if you played a human rogue and multiclassed to pick up the longbow feat you could effectively use your rogue abilities with it from then on like Sneak Attack.

Now if you are playing a rogue and some how pick up the bow proficiency you can't actually use it.

Oh look.. I'll play an Elven Rogue...

Elven Weapon Training: You gain proficiency with the longbow and the shortbow.

Rogue Sneak attack - hmm can't use it, still I could use my sling out to extreme range...

Rogue Powers - nope, nope, nope, oh I can Tumble, nope, nope.... etc.

You can use the Bow. You can't combine it with the Rogue's powers (well, at least the list of powers that was given here). Why? Because Rogues rarely use bows. If you want to train in using a bow better, better choose a class that implies using a Bow often. A Rogue is not one of them. Maybe a Fighter is, probably a Ranger is.

Likewise, a character who never used anyhting remotely connected to "Thievery" is probably not a Rogue in the first place. Or at least, not primarily a Rogue.

Classes are not just names you can slap on your character. They imply what the character does. If a class doesn't do what you want your character does, it means you're using the wrong class. Compare the Rogue to another class, like the Wizard - a Elven Wizard is proficient with a bow. Do you expect him to cast his spells using a bow? You might like a class that ends up doing this, but it's not a Wizard.


But the original topic: Yes, classes have a limited flexibility. Do they have less then advertised? Advertised by WotC - not that I know of. Advertised by posters? Probably.
Have we even seen all the flexibility that's possible with a class - don't think so.

Do you mean the Artful Dodger or Brutal Scoundrel options?

I mean the "Builds" described in the beginning of the Rogue article. Artful Dodger and Brutal Scoundrel are the Rogue Tactics, if I am not mistaken. The Builds are optional. I don't know if the Tactics are limited to the listed two, but obviously they are the only real thing you _have_ to decide on.

 

[JosephK]

I find it quite problematic too.. Imo another omen of the apparent lack of class flexibility, is the "rogue weapon talent" part.. +1 to hit with daggers and a die-increase on shuriken. Any non-dagger wielding rogue will apparently be mechanically inferior to one who uses a dagger.. Isnt that problematic for a base class, that supposedly should be able to fill the shoes of various melee archtypes? (swashbuckling, footpad, assassin-in-training, etc, etc).


The good news is that from reading the text, it doesnt seem to say you have to use the actual weapon for the powers/sneak attack.. Just says you have to be wielding one.. So with TWF you could hold a lightblade in your offhand and sneak attack and use powers with your club (brutish-footpad), broadsword, hammer/axe (dwarven rogue) or whatever


I'll withhold final judgment though Really, want to see how the multi-classing stuff works out.. Even if there is a feat called "use clubs as a weapon for your rogue powers" I still think it's a bad solution, having to spend feats on something like that. Also, I doubt the "rogue weapon talent" class ability, can be feat'ed.. And what about sneak attack? Another feat?