Cleric Won't Heal?

[DnD Warlord]

If only the people who see support as one option among many and think "because this is one thing they can do, so therefore they must do it for me" were clearly labelled so we could avoid them at the table.

Character creation night/session 0. Where everyone gets on same page...

 

[BookTenTiger]

Hire a skilled NPC for 2 gp / day (the PHB rate) to cast healing spells and give you Healing Potions.

 

[Blue]

If someone specifically says that they're playing a Cleric as the party healer and then refuses to heal, is that sort of player welcome? I've been in TPKs that occurred precisely because of this. I'll welcome a player who wants to do a different take on any class and prepare for what that means. If you blindside me, I'm going to be ticked.

In the case we are discussing, which it was communicated up front that the cleric wasn't going to be healing a lot, basically only when someone drops. You aren't being blindsided, no one is telling you one thing and doing another. In that case, what are your responses. Of course no one likes getting blindsided by misinformation, but that's not what is happening here.

 

[Blue]

Seems fair enough - you don't support me, why should I support you?

Though truth be told, I far more often have this argument with wizards (some I've run with just love messing up the front-liners) than clerics.

Say you had a moon druid instead of a cleric. Much the same in terms of healing for non life clerics. Would you insist that they if they wildshape they aren't contributing (because they aren't healing you) and therefore you should try to sabotage them?

Sorry, we don't accept the false narrative you are trying to set up that a cleric can't contribute meaningfully without focusing on healing above standing up fallen comrades.

So, with a contributing cleric - but still not focusing on healing besides the minimum - are you going to double down that you would play ineffectively to hurt them, or were you wrong?

 

[DnD Warlord]

Say you had a moon druid instead of a cleric. Much the same in terms of healing for non life clerics. Would you insist that they if they wildshape they aren't contributing (because they aren't healing you) and therefore you should try to sabotage them?

Sorry, we don't accept the false narrative you are trying to set up that a cleric can't contribute meaningfully without focusing on healing above standing up fallen comrades.

So, with a contributing cleric - but still not focusing on healing besides the minimum - are you going to double down that you would play ineffectively to hurt them, or were you wrong?

See this is a straw man too...

“what if I was useing a class feature toy help that stopped me from healing you”

is not anywhere near the same as

“What If on my turn when I can heal you I choose not to”

now if every now and then we disagree on weather you should have healed last turn or not (unless I die because of it) no harm no fowl. BUT if every time I call for healing, you choose to withhold it, and you do so because you don’t want to use your spell you preped and you and I both know it... that is going to be some sore feelings.


in my own game that I run I watched a PC (eldritch knight fighter) decide that it was better the hit the Dragon like big boss then to fall back and help the low HP alley (assassin/necromancer rogue/wizard) who was being attacked by 2 low hp dragon like ogers ... it was a bit of “If I drop the big guy I can come in next round to mop up!” But then the ogers killed the other PC... it lead to VERY hard feelings and they were 8th or 9th level...

(before someone asks how said death happened, I as dm call my shots for bad guys before rolling and dropped 2 acid claws from each oger all 4 hit 1st one brought PC to 0hp then next 3 were failed death saves)

 

[Ryujin]

In the case we are discussing, which it was communicated up front that the cleric wasn't going to be healing a lot, basically only when someone drops. You aren't being blindsided, no one is telling you one thing and doing another. In that case, what are your responses. Of course no one likes getting blindsided by misinformation, but that's not what is happening here.

The situation outlined in the original post shouldn't happen in groups in which I play, because we actually discuss things when creating the characters. It would be a blindside, if it occurred (and has).

If I was placed in that situation, somehow, I would make note of it and do my best to never have to count on that player/character again. This would ultimately make my character less effective in his stereotypical role, which wouldn't exactly be unusual for me. As a result the Cleric would likely need to somewhat step into my role within the party, by default, which could easily result in the scenario I described, intentionally or not.

 

[NotAYakk]

See this is a straw man too...

“what if I was useing a class feature toy help that stopped me from healing you”

is not anywhere near the same as

“What If on my turn when I can heal you I choose not to”

now if every now and then we disagree on weather you should have healed last turn or not (unless I die because of it) no harm no fowl. BUT if every time I call for healing, you choose to withhold it, and you do so because you don’t want to use your spell you preped and you and I both know it... that is going to be some sore feelings.

The class feature they are using that stops them from healing you includes "cast a spell" (that isn't healing you) and "make an attack" and "prepare spells that don't include healing spells".

The build choice they made was "not play a life cleric", so healing spells are much less efficient and almost always worse than trying to take the damage dealing foe out.

If "every time you order someone to do what you want", they never follow your orders, the problem might not be them.

...

Note that you can buy healing potions, burn your action and regain an average of 7 HP, greater for 14 HP, superior for 28 and supreme for 35.

A healing potion is similiar to a 1st level cure wounds, a greater to a 3rd, a superior to a 7th level cure wounds, and a supreme to a 9th level cure wounds (not that anyone would use a 7-9th level slot on a cure wounds).

If you are playing a game where potions are a bonus action (which I hear is common), then drinking that greater healing potion is easier for you than the cleric using a 4th level healing word (as your main action isn't constrained; casting healing word on a cleric prevents your main action from being a spell with a level).

Using a bonus action on a 2nd/4th/9th level healing word is a mediocre to poor use of a slot and a bonus action. When I have healing word and this is a one-fight day where I don't have a spell to cast, sometimes I'll burn 1st level slots on topping up a wounded companion critter or the like.

...

Demanding someone heal you in 5e is like being in a boat with a huge hole in the side, water pouring in. There is one guy operating a non-waterproof radio in the still dry part of the boat to send out an SOS signal, and you are yelling at them to bail water instead.

Then you blame them when someone drowns before the rescue helicopter arrives, ignoring the fact that the SOS was by far the most important thing to be doing, and bailing water when you cannot even close to keep up with the inflow is not very useful.

 

[Blue]

See this is a straw man too...

“what if I was useing a class feature toy help that stopped me from healing you”

is not anywhere near the same as

“What If on my turn when I can heal you I choose not to

It's "I am using feature X to be effective, but not healing you" vs. "I am using feature Y to be effective, but not healing you". It's the exact same thing. I was using druid to attempt to get past the incorrect perception that a cleric can not be effective if they aren't healing.

now if every now and then we disagree on weather you should have healed last turn or not (unless I die because of it) no harm no fowl. BUT if every time I call for healing, you choose to withhold it, and you do so because you don’t want to use your spell you preped and you and I both know it... that is going to be some sore feelings.

"Every time I call for healing" ...

Again, the original post was that they would heal when they wanted to, likely when you are down. So the narrow point you are arguing is never about character death, but about the cleric not being subservient by healing when you call for it.

in my own game that I run I watched a PC (eldritch knight fighter) decide that it was better the hit the Dragon like big boss then to fall back and help the low HP alley (assassin/necromancer rogue/wizard) who was being attacked by 2 low hp dragon like ogers ... it was a bit of “If I drop the big guy I can come in next round to mop up!” But then the ogers killed the other PC... it lead to VERY hard feelings and they were 8th or 9th level...

(before someone asks how said death happened, I as dm call my shots for bad guys before rolling and dropped 2 acid claws from each oger all 4 hit 1st one brought PC to 0hp then next 3 were failed death saves)

Sounds like sour grapes by the character who dropped (and at 8th-9th level was probably revivified right after the battle) because the Fighter took care of the bigger threat. It seems there's no thought to what would have happened or who would have died if the bigger threat wasn't taken care of, and if the player who's character dropped has real life bad feelings because someone made a tactical choice that may have been for the best overall but didn't serve them - well, that's a bit selfish.

 

[NotAYakk]

I literally didn't even read the rest of your post.

It's "I am using feature X to be effective, but not healing you" vs. "I am using feature Y to be effective, but not healing you". It's the exact same thing. I was using druid to attempt to get past the incorrect perception that a cleric can not be effective if they aren't healing.

In one case, the failure to "obey" the order to heal was done before the order. They wildshaped first.

In the other case, the failure to "obey" the order to heal was done after the order.

If the issue isn't effectiveness, but failure to obey, your counter argument doesn't apply.

One player is ordering another player to do something, and the other player isn't obeying. This makes the player giving the order upset; how dare the other player defy their orders? They even phrased them politely!

All of the arguments that "no, healing isn't that effective in 5e D&D" don't matter if that is the position why they should be healing. They are a cleric, their job is to support you in the ways you demand. If they didn't want to serve the other PCs, they should have picked another class. They are dishonestly picking a subserviant class and not being subservient!

 

[DnD Warlord]

The class feature they are using that stops them from healing you includes "cast a spell" (that isn't healing you) and "make an attack" and "prepare spells that don't include healing spells".

The build choice they made was "not play a life cleric", so healing spells are much less efficient and almost always worse than trying to take the damage dealing foe out.

If "every time you order someone to do what you want", they never follow your orders, the problem might not be them.

...

Note that you can buy healing potions, burn your action and regain an average of 7 HP, greater for 14 HP, superior for 28 and supreme for 35.

A healing potion is similiar to a 1st level cure wounds, a greater to a 3rd, a superior to a 7th level cure wounds, and a supreme to a 9th level cure wounds (not that anyone would use a 7-9th level slot on a cure wounds).

If you are playing a game where potions are a bonus action (which I hear is common), then drinking that greater healing potion is easier for you than the cleric using a 4th level healing word (as your main action isn't constrained; casting healing word on a cleric prevents your main action from being a spell with a level).

Using a bonus action on a 2nd/4th/9th level healing word is a mediocre to poor use of a slot and a bonus action. When I have healing word and this is a one-fight day where I don't have a spell to cast, sometimes I'll burn 1st level slots on topping up a wounded companion critter or the like.

...

Demanding someone heal you in 5e is like being in a boat with a huge hole in the side, water pouring in. There is one guy operating a non-waterproof radio in the still dry part of the boat to send out an SOS signal, and you are yelling at them to bail water instead.

Then you blame them when someone drowns before the rescue helicopter arrives, ignoring the fact that the SOS was by far the most important thing to be doing, and bailing water when you cannot even close to keep up with the inflow is not very useful.

No one demanded anything nobody ordered anyone. Try again. Your straw man is not me. If I need healing and you are capabile of it and you don’t that is a jerk play. One my table would ALL be quite cross with.

also by RAW no potions other then PHB are for sale, and that is true in many campaigns so you get 2d4+2