D&D 5E (2014) Companion thread to 5E Survivor: Species

[Scribe]

Did you enjoy 3e? Or PF?

More importantly, do you have the time to invest, as a player, in doing dull or tedious things for several months before you will be allowed to do cool things?

Yes and Yes and Yes.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes and Yes and Yes.

In that case, I highly recommend seeking out a PF game. You'll get all the overweening "naturalism" of 3.5e with a light sprinkling of altered balance (it's not really improved per se, so much as rearranged) and a largely more active community. Especially if you're into Spheres of Power, which does actually put in some effort to address the balance stuff.

 

[Scribe]

In that case, I highly recommend seeking out a PF game. You'll get all the overweening "naturalism" of 3.5e with a light sprinkling of altered balance (it's not really improved per se, so much as rearranged) and a largely more active community. Especially if you're into Spheres of Power, which does actually put in some effort to address the balance stuff.

All in good fun. I just find that I miss that era, or design style, more and more.

5e just isnt doing it for me in how Wizards is designing pretty much anything, but maybe we can get into that granularity a bit more, that progression, in OD&D.

 

[AnotherGuy]

All in good fun. I just find that I miss that era, or design style, more and more.

5e just isnt doing it for me in how Wizards is designing pretty much anything, but maybe we can get into that granularity a bit more, that progression, in OD&D.

Same boat. I'm gonna overhaul 5e or completely drop D&D after my current campaign is finished.

 

[Scribe]

Same boat. I'm gonna overhaul 5e or completely drop D&D after my current campaign is finished.

Yeah, on top of dungeon23, I'm going to finish my overhaul of the race schmorp part of character creation, finish up my gish/swordmage, and update Sorcerers this year, all in prep for if One D&D (is that really its final name...) doesnt work out.

Or, I'll just go back to PF where this is all already working.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Or, I'll just go back to PF where this is all already working.

For given definitions of "working"

 

[Argyle King]

Did you enjoy 3e? Or PF?

More importantly, do you have the time to invest, as a player, in doing dull or tedious things for several months before you will be allowed to do cool things?

Depends on how "cool" is defined and what my game desires are at the time.

Flashy powers are things that can be cool, but I don't believe they are inherently so.

Over the longhaul of a campaign, I might find it more cool to to help a town against a Goblinoid horde and play a character who is helping in that struggle -while still being part of the world- moreso than I might enjoy flashy moves and special effects.

To me, it's a little like professional wrestling. The Young Bucks are fantastic athletes, but their cirque du soleil routine gets old for me pretty fast. In contrast, guys (and girls) who barely do anything in the ring have regularly told what I believe to be a better and more-engaging story.

Other times, I might want the super-hero experience of 4E and enjoy the power fantasy of killing a demon lord of hell before they ever get an action.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Depends on how "cool" is defined and what my game desires are at the time.

Flashy powers are things that can be cool, but I don't believe they are inherently so.

Over the longhaul of a campaign, I might find it more cool to to help a town against a Goblinoid horde and play a character who is helping in that struggle -while still being part of the world- moreso than I might enjoy flashy moves and special effects.

To me, it's a little like professional wrestling. The Young Bucks are fantastic athletes, but their cirque du soleil routine gets old for me pretty fast. In contrast, guys (and girls) who barely do anything in the ring have regularly told what I believe to be a better and more-engaging story.

Other times, I might want the super-hero experience of 4E and enjoy the power fantasy of killing a demon lord of hell before they ever get an action.

My counter on this is:

You can get the "help a town against a goblinoid horde" and still get to do the cool things. Like...those aren't at all mutually exclusive. Nor is there even the slightest hint of requiring anything like "the power fantasy of killing a demon lord of hell before they ever get an action." (Frankly, I consider that sort of rocket-tag equally boring from the opposite direction. When you vaporize an encounter as soon as it's begun, there's no tension, no interest, no value to the exchange.)

I want to be able to throw my sword at a distant warg-rider and then teleport to where my sword just went. Or to drive a hobgoblin swordsman away from his comrades because by my deity's power I am stronger when I stand alone. Or to call up the soaring eagle spirit that has guided my people for generations, that we may rain swift arrows upon the rampaging horde.

I don't want to spend 4 levels (of the size and rate expected in 3e, I mean) barely able to cast a spell or stab an enemy before I'm allowed to be a stealthy mage-thief. 5e made an attempt (IMO not a very successful one*) to standardize starting at 3rd level for veteran players, with levels 1 and 2 being "training wheels" levels for brand-new players or players specifically wanting the "zero to hero" experience, but they did at least make it so most of the time** these levels go by very quickly and you get to the level where most characters have their starting kit within a few sessions, rather than taking several months even with weekly sessions.

*Because way, way, way, WAY too many DMs still think every character HAS to start at level 1. Finding games that start higher than 1 is uncommon; convincing someone to start higher than 1 is like pulling teeth, I swear to God.
**Several games I've been in have kept the players stuck at level 1 for almost a month, and clearly they would've been at level 2 for just as long if not longer....but almost all of those games have petered out before that could happen because the players lost interest.

 

[Argyle King]

My counter on this is:

You can get the "help a town against a goblinoid horde" and still get to do the cool things. Like...those aren't at all mutually exclusive. Nor is there even the slightest hint of requiring anything like "the power fantasy of killing a demon lord of hell before they ever get an action." (Frankly, I consider that sort of rocket-tag equally boring from the opposite direction. When you vaporize an encounter as soon as it's begun, there's no tension, no interest, no value to the exchange.)

I want to be able to throw my sword at a distant warg-rider and then teleport to where my sword just went. Or to drive a hobgoblin swordsman away from his comrades because by my deity's power I am stronger when I stand alone. Or to call up the soaring eagle spirit that has guided my people for generations, that we may rain swift arrows upon the rampaging horde.

I don't want to spend 4 levels (of the size and rate expected in 3e, I mean) barely able to cast a spell or stab an enemy before I'm allowed to be a stealthy mage-thief. 5e made an attempt (IMO not a very successful one*) to standardize starting at 3rd level for veteran players, with levels 1 and 2 being "training wheels" levels for brand-new players or players specifically wanting the "zero to hero" experience, but they did at least make it so most of the time** these levels go by very quickly and you get to the level where most characters have their starting kit within a few sessions, rather than taking several months even with weekly sessions.

*Because way, way, way, WAY too many DMs still think every character HAS to start at level 1. Finding games that start higher than 1 is uncommon; convincing someone to start higher than 1 is like pulling teeth, I swear to God.
**Several games I've been in have kept the players stuck at level 1 for almost a month, and clearly they would've been at level 2 for just as long if not longer....but almost all of those games have petered out before that could happen because the players lost interest.

That's all fine to me.

But, again, it depends on how "cool" is defined and what kind of game I want.

Teleporting around and all of that can be very fun. But, in some cases, I would find that less cool than being in a bloody clash of steel, needing to lead troops up a siege ladder, or any number of things that may embrace a more dirty and grounded way of doing things.

Funny enough, 3rd Edition (which I wasn't defending) advertising being that type of game while not actually being that in play was part of what started my initial interest in trying other ttrpgs (which I eventually did during 4E).

Later, I picked up 4E. I highly enjoyed 4E when I wanted something more like the style of game you mentioned above. I loved the vibe that the 4E preview books had and wish more of that aesthetic had stayed in the game. But, when I wanted to deviate from that, I found that it was a poor fit for a lot of the other styles of stories I wanted to play.

Though, really, it was more of what 4E got "right" than "wrong" which fully pushed me to try other games. I loved a lot of early lore and how things were described, but didn't find that described world reflected very well in what was happening at the table. I also preferred the lessened power curve between levels, eventually realizing that maybe I wanted an experience which was less tied to levels rushing to an end-of-the-world scenario.

Some of my favorite experiences with 4E were in games that didn't look like typical fantasy (or even a D&D setting) at all.

Still, all of that can be "cool" if it's what I'm in the mood for. It also depends upon context.

The teleporting sword is something that could be pretty cool as a routine thing if I'm playing something more in the vein of 90s-Xmen; a Mythic hero like Beowulf, DBZ, or etc.

If I'm wanting an experience which veers more toward the cave scenes in 13th Warrior; slower/rarer magic in an R.E. Howard story; or an exchange of broadsides by ships, I would expect that to be rarer -with "cool" being something which may very well be a mostly mundane item with minor magical qualities or being chosen to be knighted.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

If I'm wanting an experience which veers more toward the cave scenes in 13th Warrior; slower/rarer magic in an R.E. Howard story; or an exchange of broadsides by ships, I would expect that to be rarer -with "cool" being something which may very well be a mostly mundane item with minor magical qualities or being chosen to be knighted.

I just don't understand what prevents you from getting a mostly mundane item with minor magical qualities or being chosen to be knighted in literally any system ever. Like...those things are things that can happen in essentially all fantasy games.