D&D 5E (2014) Companion thread to 5E Survivor: Species

[AnotherGuy]

I just don't understand what prevents you from getting a mostly mundane item with minor magical qualities or being chosen to be knighted in literally any system ever. Like...those things are things that can happen in essentially all fantasy games.

Mostly mundane items with minor magical qualities doesn't solve the issue with cantrips. And in their wisdom WotC designed for light to be a cantrip while darkness needs a spell level slot. Pretty much Harry Potter magic logic.
D&D requires a major overhaul to do a slower/rarer version of magic.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Mostly mundane items with minor magical qualities doesn't solve the issue with cantrips. And in their wisdom WotC designed for light to be a cantrip while darkness needs a spell level slot. Pretty much Harry Potter magic logic.
D&D requires a major overhaul to do a slower/rarer version of magic.

Spoiler: Off-topic convo

I mean...I know I bring up 4e probably more than I should...but it was 100% compatible with having a zero magic game, not just a low magic game if that's what you wanted. Inherent Bonuses + Fighter/Rogue/Warlord/Ranger (especially once Essentials gave us a controller Ranger.) That's enough to have a full four-person party where nobody uses magic. Could throw in Monk, Barbarian, and a small handful of other classes (Bard and Avenger come to mind; perhaps Shaman, if you're okay with the spirit companion)--all of them can be explained with pretty low amounts of magic, more similar to bending from Avatar the Last Airbender.

Then any truly "magical" stuff can come from items (which don't have to have any special +N bonuses, because Inherent Bonuses takes care of that), or feats/PPs/etc., something that characters "grow into" rather than starting with.

------

Back on topic:
While the numbers look bad for so-called "anthropomorphics" if we include Shifter...if we don't include them, they're actually quite good. Elf+Dwarf has actually fallen (proportionally) more than non-Shifter "anthro" options, despite having fewer points. Pardon, the original numbers included half-elf, which bumps things up.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Back on topic:
While the numbers look bad for so-called "anthropomorphics" if we include Shifter...if we don't include them, they're actually quite good. Elf+Dwarf has actually fallen (proportionally) more than non-Shifter "anthro" options, despite having fewer points.

To be honest I'm not sure which numbers you're looking at. For the last few days Ive been looking at PHB playables (excluding the half-orc) and their decrease is substantially less than the drop the rest have experienced. The Satyr, Goblinoid, Lizardfolk supporters need to be careful because Tabaxi is now finally off the list - which means the next "popular" becomes hunted.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

To be honest I'm not sure which numbers you're looking at. For the last few days Ive been looking at PHB playables (excluding the half-orc) and their decrease is substantially less than the drop the rest have experienced. The Satyr, Goblinoid, Lizardfolk supporters need to be careful because Tabaxi is now finally off the list - which means the next "popular" becomes hunted.

When I last counted, there were 88 total points across the various "anthropomorphic" options, counting Shifter, and 66 without them. At present, we now have 62 with Shifter, 52 without. That's a drop, but not a huge one. As noted above, I was neglecting half-elf (because I think it's....really weird to be counting half-elf among elves, personally). With half-elf, the dwarf/(half-)elf group is now at 53, which is, yes, about the same as where it was before.

But, you're leaving out that all those people voting for "anthropomorphic" stuff gave downvotes that are themselves eliminating things. Halflings have been all but eliminated, when only four days ago there were two remaining halflings and twice as many points for them on the board. It's quite likely that those downvotes are gonna hit hard on the other Tolkienesque options once halflings are gone, and elf is hanging by a thread no thicker than what holds up halfling right now.

 

[Argyle King]

I just don't understand what prevents you from getting a mostly mundane item with minor magical qualities or being chosen to be knighted in literally any system ever. Like...those things are things that can happen in essentially all fantasy games.

It can happen. That doesn't mean it is well rewarded or well supported.

For example, taking the Leadership feat and having an army of followers in 3rd Edition sounds like a cool idea. However, I very quickly learned that the army of followers gained is virtually useless against any kind of threat I might face. Instead, I was better off having the followers act more like a NASCAR pit crew working to support my PC by churning out magic items and stuff like that. Powerful? Potentially. The experience I wanted? Not even close.

As for being a knight... again, you can do it. But having a horse and being mounted (something which should be a positive) very quickly became a liability. The horse likely isn't surviving even minor spellcasting on the part of an enemy.

If I'm playing in a game built around the expectations of common attack magic and wirefu combat, that's a very different set of assumptions about how the game works works and how I'll interact with that as a player.

Another example that relates to a species/race thread is something as simple as whether or not a dragonborn has a tail. That could be something which is just fluff and aesthetic like it is in D&D, or that could mean I have an appendage with which to make attacks (or be targeted by them).

That's just looking at combat.

How does the world work?

Am I expected to have magic items or a fantastical beast as a mount for my character to function properly? That changes what I buy and how the economy works.

Some games don't have levels at all, so there isn't an expectation of wealth or items.

Are flying creatures common? Teleporting?

How I would go about building a castle and where I would put it is different.

What about social interactions? Am I dealing with the a-hole version of changelings I mentioned a few pages ago? Does a DM (or game) rule that Charm effects ate just good vibes toward a person or is it essentially mind control?

How those pieces are handled change the game and my interactions with it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It can happen. That doesn't mean it is well rewarded or well supported.

Okay. In my experience, there's only one edition of D&D that has actually supported these things well--pretty much your whole list, in fact.

How those pieces are handled change the game and my interactions with it.

The vast majority of the things you've described are either not rules elements (at least in D&D), or left up to DM adjudication, not set in stone--even in 4e, the edition everyone asserts had a rule for everything. What you're talking about are (in most cases) setting elements, which...will appear in whatever system you use to play that setting. Why not have a system which supports doing cool things and supports, or at least doesn't get in the way of enjoying, the setting elements you care about? E.g. your question about changelings is something that, I'm pretty sure, no game system ever has nailed down that hard, because it's a matter of the culture and psychology of changelings, which is part of setting design, not rules design.

 

[AnotherGuy]

When I last counted, there were 88 total points across the various "anthropomorphic" options, counting Shifter, and 66 without them. At present, we now have 62 with Shifter, 52 without. That's a drop, but not a huge one. As noted above, I was neglecting half-elf (because I think it's....really weird to be counting half-elf among elves, personally). With half-elf, the dwarf/(half-)elf group is now at 53, which is, yes, about the same as where it was before.

The mad-love for Elves includes the memory of Tanis Half-Elven. Half-Elf as a playable race is popular.

But, you're leaving out that all those people voting for "anthropomorphic" stuff gave downvotes that are themselves eliminating things. Halflings have been all but eliminated, when only four days ago there were two remaining halflings and twice as many points for them on the board. It's quite likely that those downvotes are gonna hit hard on the other Tolkienesque options once halflings are gone, and elf is hanging by a thread no thicker than what holds up halfling right now.

Gnomes, Halflings and Dragonborn are but padding for the Dwarves and Elves. It is known.

As long as you have the Satyrs voting down the Minotaurs and the Aasimars voting down the Lizardfolk, the people of Tolkien will unite against the forces of chaos and push them all into Mount Doom.

 

[CleverNickName]

And now, only 22 species remain!

We have a three-way tie for first place, with the Forest Gnome, the Half-Orc, and the Kobold both at 15. Second-place is a four-way tie, with the Hill Dwarf, Half-Elf, Halfling, and Satyr all at 14.

In the basement we have tha Air Genasi at 4, followed by the Fire Genasi and Goblin at 7, and the Githyanki at 8.

 

[CleverNickName]

My relentless crusade against the Animorphs marches forward! We have only three remaining, down from roughly eight thousand that we started with. And those three aren't the worst...they have the longest history and the best mythology behind them, so I can understand why they've lasted as long as they have. I'm going to keep hammering on them, of course, but I won't be heartbroken when the lizard, bull, or goat (probably the goat) makes it into the Top Ten. At least it's not, ya know, a fish or whatever.

I had a half-dozen "favorites" in this contest, but they were all eliminated inside the first week. Now I just throw my upvotes on whatever odd-numbered score I happen to see first (so that my upvote matters very little), and focus my downvotes on the lowest-scoring animal-person hybrid (to hasten their demise). If you were hoping to attack my favorites in retribution, I'm afraid you're several weeks too late. Er, I mean, oh please don't downvote Gnomes, I love them so much, golly I hope nobody hurts them they are the best, they are so good that people are afraid of them winning, et cetera.

Spoiler: My Top Ten prediction

I think the top-ten is going to look like this:

Aasimar
Dwarf, Mountain
Genasi, Water
Githzerai
Gnome, Forest
Half-orc
Halfling, Lightfoot
Hobgoblin
Lizardfolk
Satyr

I'd like to include the Shifter in here, since it's the only surviving Eberron race, but I think its days are numbered. I don't expect it will be around for the weekend.

 

[RealAlHazred]

I mean, the main issue there us just that 3.5e was obsessed with forcing people to earn the gameplay experience they wanted to have, and that PrCs were equally split between absolute garbage, stupidly overpowered, and reasonably balanced but very niche. This one looks like it's dancing on the line between garbage and niche, though I could see it working in gestalt as a source for pounce.

I'm not sure I see the issue you're describing.

"I want to turn into a powerful combat beast!" seems to be what you're defining as the goal of the player experience. (Please correct me if that's wrong.) Starting as a shifter, you get minor were-type improvements when shifting (claws, enhanced physical stats, tough skin, etc.) You have to pick one to start with, and your shifting time is short at the beginning, but as you accrue levels, you can rapidly increase that by building in elements that synergize with it -- taking racial substitution levels increases your shifting time, as does every [Shifter] feat you take. By level 5, you can approximate a werewolf, albeit not quite as potent -- you can deal out the damage and take some punishment, but you're missing the best ability of lycanthropes, namely being completely immune to damage from normal weapons. It takes until higher levels, above 10, before you hit that peak, but by that point, you're the most powerful combat beast in your party.

If you started with an actual werewolf at 1st level, being immune to damage and having ten times as many hit points as any other party member (including the fighters) would make others feel ineffective in combat, I'd think. On the other hand, you could just play a werewolf and other players could play other equivalently-powered monsters, like vampires and such. Or, you could start a game at 10+ levels, another option. But the lower levels are there to enable those who want "Zero-to-Hero" play to have some area of the game where they can play; if you wiped that out, how will your game accommodate me, who wants players to be absolute losers at the beginning, and earn their titles and manors?