D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XII: Rogues)

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
But at the very least, I think this subclass has everything that players expect a "Bard" to bring to the party.
Yet in the doing you've stripped out an enormous amount of spells (seriously, this is massive and cannot be understated) and, if Inspiration works the way you've said, horribly nerfed the core shtick of the class.

You haven't made a Bard. You've made an Arcane Trickster with better features. Which is exactly my problem.
 

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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Yet in the doing you've stripped out an enormous amount of spells (seriously, this is massive and cannot be understated) and, if Inspiration works the way you've said, horribly nerfed the core shtick of the class.

You haven't made a Bard. You've made an Arcane Trickster with better features. Which is exactly my problem.
Well what is a bard? They didn't have as much spells in 3.X for example (although more than an arcane trickster, they were "2/3 casters".) Is magic really core to the concept?

The assassin had spells in 3.X...

Lastly, I'll note that one of my players wanted to play a "bard" but they didn't want all that heavy spellcasting. I helped them make an AK with the entertainer background...
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
A Bard Rogue is perhaps where I’d build a small set of Songs, some like Song of Rest, others more like 3.5 Inspire Courage.

But the thing is….why on earth is this bard really good at stealth-stab-murder-kill?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Well what is a bard?
A miserable pile of (Magical) Secrets! But enough talk!

They didn't have as much spells in 3.X for example (although more than an arcane trickster, they were "2/3 casters".) Is magic really core to the concept?
Usually I say no to this question--I consider Rangers and Paladins significantly improved when they don't cast spells, but have other forms of supernatural power--but for the Bard? Yes, absolutely. The whole point of the Bard is that they do all the things. They're the equivalent of Red Mage from Final Fantasy (or, rather, Red Mage is the equivalent of Bard, since D&D very much came first.)

The assassin had spells in 3.X...
And, as above, I think that that is sad. Proper spells should be one important, but not hegemonic, branch of supernatural power. Some classes should be focused on it. IMO, those are Bard, Cleric, Druid, Invoker (a 4e class), Sorcerer, Summoner (a PF class), Wizard, Warlock. Possibly also Artificer and Shaman--I can see those going either way. But Assassin, Avenger, Monk, Paladin, anything psionics-based, Ranger, Swordmage, and Warden should all do things that aren't neo-Vancian slots-and-levels spellcasting. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have supernatural powers; instead, it means that whatever supernatural powers they have should function differently, preferably more closely tailored to the theme of these classes. (Notably, most of those which I think should use neo-Vancian casting are pretty "big tent" classes with multiple divergent takes under one roof, while most of those I think shouldn't do so are more inherently tightly-themed, with subclasses being more about focus and tone than about playstyle shifts.)

Lastly, I'll note that one of my players wanted to play a "bard" but they didn't want all that heavy spellcasting. I helped them make an AK with the entertainer background...
For someone who wants a character that is like that, awesome. Opting into that is great, and I would 100% approve of a "soft multiclass" option for a Rogue with a dabble of Bard. Making it so everyone must run with that--and, moreover, cannot opt out of it--is kind of a problem.

Or, to put it a different way: By this standard, the Eldritch Knight is a Wizard replacement. No need to waste space on a full Wizard class when the Eldritch Knight is good enough!

Providing "soft multiclass" options of all kinds is great. It isn't a good substitute for true classes. That doesn't mean we should hare off and make a class for every possible concept, because that would be silly. But it's just as silly, IMO, to pass off "soft multiclass" options as though they fully cover an extant class.
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Usually I say no to this question--I consider Rangers and Paladins significantly improved when they don't cast spells, but have other forms of supernatural power--but for the Bard? Yes, absolutely. The whole point of the Bard is that they do all the things. They're the equivalent of Red Mage from Final Fantasy (or, rather, Red Mage is the equivalent of Bard, since D&D very much came first.)

I absolutely 100% agree with you that bards should have spells...

... but full casters? Really? That doesn't sound like a jack of all trade, or a red mage... Bards being full caster is a new, 5e thing. (note: I don't know how they were in 4e so maybe that last statement isn't quite accurate)

And, as above, I think that that is sad.
I agree with you that an assassin shouldn't have to have spells... but it was one of their distinguishing feature in 3e. An assassin would use any tool that accomplishes the job IMO, and a bit of magic certainly helps a lot. Interestingly, in 2e there was no assassin class, because "anyone can be a killer for hire"

.
But Assassin, Avenger, Monk, Paladin, anything psionics-based, Ranger, Swordmage, and Warden should all do things that aren't neo-Vancian slots-and-levels spellcasting. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have supernatural powers; instead, it means that whatever supernatural powers they have should function differently, preferably more closely tailored to the theme of these classes.
You must be happy with some of the more recent "alt magic" sub-classes, like the rune knight or the soul knife? (I am)

For someone who wants a character that is like that, awesome. Opting into that is great, and I would 100% approve of a "soft multiclass" option for a Rogue with a dabble of Bard. Making it so everyone must run with that--and, moreover, cannot opt out of it--is kind of a problem.

Or, to put it a different way: By this standard, the Eldritch Knight is a Wizard replacement. No need to waste space on a full Wizard class when the Eldritch Knight is good enough!

Providing "soft multiclass" options of all kinds is great. It isn't a good substitute for true classes. That doesn't mean we should hare off and make a class for every possible concept, because that would be silly. But it's just as silly, IMO, to pass off "soft multiclass" options as though they fully cover an extant class.

Oh that wasn't what I was proposing - I was merely noting how a "bard-like subclass for the rogue" can already be sort of mimicked.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I absolutely 100% agree with you that bards should have spells...

... but full casters? Really? That doesn't sound like a jack of all trade, or a red mage... Bards being full caster is a new, 5e thing.
With the way 5e is designed, yes. Really, it applies to 3e as well; the Bard sucks as a caster unless you bolt on the Sublime Chord PrC...which very specifically gets a weirdo magic progression allowing a Bard to have 9th level spells.

(note: I don't know how they were in 4e so maybe that last statement isn't quite accurate)
Well, "spell" means two different things in 4e: class powers for arcane classes, and rituals. 4e Bards are excellent Ritual Casters, with a suite of Bard-only rituals to boot. It's...difficult to make direct comparisons between powers and spells proper because they are similar, but they have enough fundamental but subtle differences to make it very complicated.

I agree with you that an assassin shouldn't have to have spells... but it was one of their distinguishing feature in 3e.
And I thought that was silly back then, too. Keep in mind, in 3e, the Warlock was NOT a spellcaster of any kind, yet it makes a great deal of sense that it is one in 5e. The "original" version is not always the best version.

An assassin would use any tool that accomplishes the job IMO, and a bit of magic certainly helps a lot. Interestingly, in 2e there was no assassin class, because "anyone can be a killer for hire".
I prefer "a bit of magic" to be something that isn't Vancian spellcasting. Indeed, that is exactly where I think non-spellcasting supernatural power shines brightest.

You must be happy with some of the more recent "alt magic" sub-classes, like the rune knight or the soul knife? (I am)
Oh, sure, some are pretty neat. I haven't closely looked at the soulknife (no phone, not soup knife...) so I can't comment on that.

Oh that wasn't what I was proposing - I was merely noting how a "bard-like subclass for the rogue" can already be sort of mimicked.
I had understood that to be CleverKnickName's point, intending to completely replace the Bard class with a Rogue subclass, hence the phrasing: "And to think: some folks still think that the bard shouldn't be a subclass of Rogue." Certainly I can guarantee it's the intent of more than one poster on here, e.g. demoting Warlock to being a Cleric subclass. Class reductionism is a lamentably common interest.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
And I thought that was silly back then, too. Keep in mind, in 3e, the Warlock was NOT a spellcaster of any kind, yet it makes a great deal of sense that it is one in 5e. The "original" version is not always the best version.
Wait…it makes sense for the “breaks the rules of magic via otherworldly gifts as a shortcut to power” to be a full spellcaster, but the Ranger shouldn’t be!?

Nevermind I just don’t get your entire perspective on Spellcasting and I should just accept that and move on…
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
have spells... but it was one of their distinguishing feature in 3e. An assassin would use any tool that accomplishes the job IMO, and a bit of magic certainly helps a lot.
Same reason the ranger should have spells, IMO. And yeah I’m a D&D world, I agree that the best assassins have magic.
Interestingly, in 2e there was no assassin class, because "anyone can be a killer for hire"
That has always got my hackles up. “Killer for hire” is a mercenary or contract killer. An Assassin is something quite different.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Wait…it makes sense for the “breaks the rules of magic via otherworldly gifts as a shortcut to power” to be a full spellcaster, but the Ranger shouldn’t be!?
Warlocks, Clerics, and Sorcerers all get spells by endowment. This is a well-established pattern.

Rangers do tricksy wilderness things, knowing what herbs can heal a wound or kill a beast. That's nothing remotely like an endowment of magical power from an outside source. Nor is it all that much like Wizard, Bard, or Druid spells. It is a much looser, more ad-hoc thing.

Furthermore, I was speaking (as I said) within the context of 5e. 5e locks most actually useful mechanics being spellcasting. If you want to be relevant beyond level 10 or so, you should be a spellcaster of some kind. Hence the Warlock in 5e being a caster. In other contexts, it might be something different. It depends on how the game system is designed.

Nevermind I just don’t get your entire perspective on Spellcasting and I should just accept that and move on…
I honestly don't get what is confusing about this. I want a diversity of approaches to supernatural power. This requires that there be more than just the very specific mechanical and thematic limitations imposed by "you have X/Y/Z slots of level M/P/Q, which specifically refresh daily and which are totally fungible between your different magical abilities of a given level, and which are disabled or defeasible under specific well-defined circumstances no matter how you perform them, and you must specifically engage nondescript physical motions, highly specific magical materials, or nondescript verbal expressions if and only if they are mentioned in the text."

That's a very specific mechanical niche. It can do a lot of things (it is magic, after all), but it isn't, and shouldn't be mistaken for, a totally generic "this truly does cover all possible supernatural powers someone might want to use." As demonstrated by numerous supernatural/not-fully-mundane effects in 5e, like Rage, Bardic Inspiration, Ki, Channel Divinity, Wild Shape, Auras, etc. Spells would struggle to replicate several of these without massive kludge.
 

Aldarc

Legend
The first 5E Rogue that I rolled up was an Arcane Trickster. I liked the idea of being able to open locks, pick pockets, and disarm traps at range.

It's a nice idea in theory, but in practice? I can count on one hand the number of times I actually used it, and even when it worked perfectly, it wasn't particularly exciting. I could do something from across the room that anyone else could do from 5 feet away, sure. But that range almost never mattered. A floating invisible hand is pretty cool in comic books. but I thought it was pretty dull at the table.

The character ended up getting snuffed by a clutch of wyverns at 8th level, and I decided to leave him in the afterlife. I rolled up a...sorcerer? I think? after that, and never went back to rogue. In hindsight, I would have chosen to play a Thief with the Magic Initiate feat instead.
It's incredible how our experiences shape our perception of the subclasses. I played an Arcane Trickster and had an absolute blast. One of my best characters. I played him as an arcane investigator and exfiltrator of magical relics. The spells were not the main feature, but his tricks and tools of the trade. The long-distance Mage Hand, for example, came in handy when the party had to disarm a magical bomb. At later levels, he did multiclass into wizard, but that was also due to some story reasons rather than deficiencies of the AT.
 

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