Concentration

[Tharkon]

What started me thinking about this was seeing the Perform (Taunt) skill. Basically, a character says some nasty, mean stuff to his enemy, pissing him off, and the enemy lowers his guard a bit. The defense to the taunt is the Concentration throw.

That all sounds well and good, except I was wondering what CON had to do with being able to withstand the insults somebody is leveling at you.

Isn't that just an Intimidate check which is countered by a (1d20+level+Wis+vs fear bonuses)? That's what I thought at least.
Or a Bluff check countered by a Sense Motive check depending on the way you go about it. In both cases it's Cha vs Wis, and Con has nothing to do with it.

 

[Water Bob]

Isn't that just an Intimidate check which is countered by a (1d20+level+Wis+vs fear bonuses)?

Nah, you're talking about the Demoralize Opponent function of the Intimidate skill. What I'm talking about is the Perform (Taunt) skill.

Or a Bluff check countered by a Sense Motive check depending on the way you go about it.

That's the Feint option of the Bluff skill.

 

[Tharkon]

I meant that saying some nasty, mean stuff to an enemy, pissing him off, sounds like exactly what the Intimidate skill is for, which is opposed by Wisdom by default, just like you wanted.

Where did you find Perform (taunt)?

 

[Water Bob]

Where did you find Perform (taunt)?

Two places, really. Officially, it's in the Cimmeria sourcebook. Unofficially, it's used in the Neverwinter Nights (the first one) computer game (which uses d20 rules).

I was thinking of combining both the Perform (Taunt) descriptions, but I was dubious about the Concentration defense.

I have seen Concentration suggested in a sourcebook as a way for a character to keep from getting lost in the wilderness. I believe that's in the Fiercest sourcebook, IIRC. There, again, I would ask, "What does keeping one's head for navigation have to do with the CON stat?"

Thus, I posted this thread to try and understand the Concentration skill better.

The skill seems to be focussed on the use of sorcery, but is that its only use? Can it be used to keep your sense of direction? Can it be used to shrug off insults that would make your ancestors twist in their graves? If you were Luke Skywalker, and you were trying to tag that womp rat sized hole on the Death Star, would it be the Concentration skill, based on your CON, that you turned to when that old man's voice went off in your head, saying, "Luke! Trust your feelings!"

I'm just trying to get a grip on the Concentration skill for non-sorcerery uses.

 

[Tharkon]

Two places, really. Officially, it's in the Cimmeria sourcebook. Unofficially, it's used in the Neverwinter Nights (the first one) computer game (which uses d20 rules).

I was thinking of combining both the Perform (Taunt) descriptions, but I was dubious about the Concentration defense.

I have seen Concentration suggested in a sourcebook as a way for a character to keep from getting lost in the wilderness. I believe that's in the Fiercest sourcebook, IIRC. There, again, I would ask, "What does keeping one's head for navigation have to do with the CON stat?"

Thus, I posted this thread to try and understand the Concentration skill better.

The skill seems to be focussed on the use of sorcery, but is that its only use? Can it be used to keep your sense of direction? Can it be used to shrug off insults that would make your ancestors twist in their graves? If you were Luke Skywalker, and you were trying to tag that womp rat sized hole on the Death Star, would it be the Concentration skill, based on your CON, that you turned to when that old man's voice went off in your head, saying, "Luke! Trust your feelings!"

I'm just trying to get a grip on the Concentration skill for non-sorcerery uses.

I regret to say Cimmeria and Fiercest are not amongst the resources I can access so I can't look into that for you, and Neverwinter Nights is still on my to-play list.

However, correct me if I am wrong, but I think your common sense is telling you that Concentration does not really fit these situations. Which makes perfectly sense.

Avoiding getting lost in the wilderness would probably be a Survival check, finding your way in a maze however would be an Intelligence check (it's all about remembering where you've been in a maze).

You felt like Concentration should be Wisdom based on situations which have actually have Wisdom based versions listed in the PHB.

So IMO, the problem lies with the supplement rules you've found, rather than with the Concentration skill. However, I don't know Cimmeria, Fiercest or NN very well, so I can't judge on the sources in general, but as far as Perform (Taunt) and the two uses of Concentration you listed they're not doing great.

I don't see taunting as much of a performance anyway.
Perhaps try substituting Perform and Concentration with Intimidate the modified level check and Survival and see if the rest of the book still works around that. It might make more sense that way.

 

[Water Bob]

I regret to say Cimmeria and Fiercest are not amongst the resources I can access so I can't look into that for you, and Neverwinter Nights is still on my to-play list.

Fiercest is well worth getting. It's an excellent resource. Cimmeria is "OK", but useful to me since my campaign is set there. I don't know that I'd bother with it--or if it would be worth the money--if my players weren't spending a lot of time there.

If you're thinking about getting either, I've got a huge thumbs up for Fiercest, and Cimmeria is conditional to spending a lot of time in Cimmeria. The book is 99% fluff about that part of the world and not much use if you game elsewhere.

LOL, on NWN. I've been waiting years to play it, too. I finally picked up both NWN I and II, but haven't gotten far into NWN I yet.

No time!

However, correct me if I am wrong, but I think your common sense is telling you that Concentration does not really fit these situations.

You got that right.

I'm investigating because I'd like to see if its viable to make Concentration a good skill for a non-spell caster.

One thing I do like about the Conan game is all the broad uses for skills. Many skills are useful in many different ways. I was hoping that Concentration would be that way--not just the "sorcery skill".

Avoiding getting lost in the wilderness would probably be a Survival check...

I would think that as well.

 

[Tharkon]

I'm investigating because I'd like to see if its viable to make Concentration a good skill for a non-spell caster.

Concentration is useful for any character that intends to do any actions that might be interrupted. Either because they take longer than a single round, or because they are interrupted by continuous damage or readied actions.

A few examples:
A paladin casting detect evil when a hidden foe appears while still in combat with another.
A rogue trying to pick a lock when a trap activates.
A cleric applying first-aid in a wagon on a rough road.
A sailor tying up the ropes on the mast when a storm suddenly rises.
A gnome using ghost sound to create a distraction when attempting an escape.


Btw, at the risk of sounding very stupid, what does the Conan tag actually mean?

 

[Water Bob]

A few examples:
A paladin casting detect evil when a hidden foe appears while still in combat with another.
A rogue trying to pick a lock when a trap activates.
A cleric applying first-aid in a wagon on a rough road.
A sailor tying up the ropes on the mast when a storm suddenly rises.
A gnome using ghost sound to create a distraction when attempting an escape.

Those are good examples. I think I could argue WIS is a better governor stat than CON, though, in many cases.

Btw, at the risk of sounding very stupid, what does the Conan tag actually mean?

The Conan RPG is probably the best d20 clone that's been published. Many consider it the best version of the d20 rules, including Pathfinder.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Those are good examples. I think I could argue WIS is a better governor stat than CON, though, in many cases.

In my game (based on the d20 rules), I did indeed change it to be based on Wisdom. But I made Spot and Listen based on Con (if you're healthier, you have better senses).

I changed the Wisdom stat to represent emotional awareness, not awareness in general. Physical awareness fell under the Con umbrella.

But, as I don't think you're looking to houserule, maybe I can suggest something that helps. Rather than change Concentration to be based on Wisdom, why not allow the new use of Perform (Taunt) and make it based on the same thing Intimidate's demoralize is based on? (level check + Wis + fear resist, I think)

That might fit your needs better, while leaving the attribute governing Concentration alone. If not, you can always consider making the same swap I made (Concentration swapped with Spot and Listen).

 

[Tharkon]

The Conan RPG is probably the best d20 clone that's been published. Many consider it the best version of the d20 rules, including Pathfinder.

So we're not talking about D&D then? I was not aware of that, so anything I mentioned might not work for your game.