Conceptual Problem - Fighter vs. Ranger

JohnSnow

Hero
So, there was an article on the WotC site a couple weeks ago that they didn't know what to do with the fighter class because it was "insufficiently well-defined" or some such. I think the problem may be that, as they've tried to define the niche of other classes, WotC has largely defined the fighter class by what it is not, as opposed to what it is.

The fighter can't have magic, since that's the domain of the wizard. He can't have rage, since that's the barbarian's schtick. He can't be an unarmed combatant, because then he's treading on the monk's turf. Since the rogue is "the skill-user," the fighter can't have too many skills. With 4e, he could no longer be an archer, because that would be treading on the ranger's turf. By creating the Warlord class, they also carved out any character that ever commanded troops. You want Alexander the Great? Sorry, he's not a fighter, he's a Warlord. And on, and on.

All that niche-carving meant narrowing down the fighter class until it was defined basically as follows:

Fighters exist to soak up damage. They wear heavy armor and wield either a two-handed weapon or a weapon and shield. Sometimes, they throw axes, hammers, or javelins. Their damage output is...okay.

I grant that's a niche, but it's a boring as hell niche. And it means that every hero in fantasy fiction who doesn't follow that niche isn't a fighter. Cu Chulainn isn't a fighter, he's a barbarian (rage). Neither is Conan - who's not a barbarian either, so he must be - what, a ranger? Hercules, Beowulf, Charlemagne, Alexander, Caesar, Spartacus, Brian Boru, Theseus, Perseus, Jason, Odysseus, Achilles, El Cid, Arthur, Lancelot, Robin Hood, Athos, Porthos, Aramis, D'Artagnan, Fafhrd, the Grey Mouser, Bard, Aragorn, Legolas, Faramir, Lan (from The Wheel of Time), The Seven Samurai, and the various vikings in The Thirteenth Warrior - none of these characters are fighters. In all cases, they're too capable or multi-talented, or they don't adhere to the weapon and armor restrictions proscribed by the niche.

Who is? Boromir (although a good argument could be made for Boromir as Warlord). Gimli the dwarf and his kinsmen from The Hobbit. Maybe. Sturm (from Dragonlance), perhaps.

"Fighter" as archetype roughly translates to "Heroic Warrior." All of the above should probably be fighters (a couple might be rogues). So the first thing we should do is accept that fighters don't just wear heavy armor, they wear light armor (or none) as well. They also don't just use melee weapons, but bows as well. A fighter might have a gift for tactics (many do - think Maximus in Gladiator, or even Captain America), but that doesn't suddenly make him a different class.

The problem if you admit this is that the ranger and the warlord start to look pretty difficult to define. They're stomping all over the fighter's turf, without enough to define them as classes that don't take things away from the fighter.

In Middle Earth, "Ranger" was a role - a job. Similarly, in the real world, rangers are people trained in survival and wilderness combat. But what sets a ranger apart froma fighter with wilderness skills? Going back to AD&D, rangers made sense - they were an elite fighter for the forces of good - a better fighter than the fighter. And I understand the theory behind the warlord (don't get me wrong, I love having a non-magical healer class), but to me the warlord's existence just pigeonholes the fighter even more into being just the "damage sponge." And that's a poor fate for the class that originally represented almost every hero from history, myth and fiction.

What would I do? Define the ranger by supernatural abilities and lore access that make it unique. Use Aragorn as the model and have the ranger "kill the warlord and take his stuff." Now we have a single class that's not as specialized a fighter, but has more access to magic and tactical/leadership/healing abilities. That's an archetype worth having in the game. It means Aragorn is a ranger, but Legolas isn't. It means that Robin Hood is probably a ranger, but Little John isn't. Maybe Odysseus and Jason are rangers, but Achilles and Perseus aren't.

My two cents. Your thoughts?
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
A fighter is a trained warrior of many weapons and armor.

A ranger is a warrior trained to exist out in the wilderness where there are freaking bears and sharks and direwolves and giant snakes and has to learn to hide or kill things dead before they eat him.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
I'd be quite happy with a three-part, independent set of elements, perhaps class/archetype/theme--assuming some of the noise we have been hearing about "theme" being less about combat and more about other stuff. Then "ranger" and the like would go into the "archetype" bin, and run amuck in that vein.

You'd have some characters that were fighter/ranger/crofter and others that were fighter/paladin/noble. And since they were independent, you might do things like rogue/ranger/outlaw for someone more sneaky woodsman than otherwise, as opposed to a more typicaly rogue/thief/townsman. Sure wizard/ranger/peasant might be strange, but I suppose having that option would be a strength.

So all fighters (and clerics and wizards and rogues) are skilled, because all characters are skilled. The archetype you pick determines roughly where you are skilled, rather than how much. If you want to make your wizard frail and bookish, you can. But if your elf wizard knows his way around trees, you can do that, too.

I don't think it will fly with a lot of folks, though, even some that might like it if they tried it. They want to be a "ranger" so much, that they want ranger as a primary class, done the way they see it.
 
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TwinBahamut

First Post
Really, trying to make clear distinctions between any different kind of non-magical class is a pain. Actually, distinguishing between magical classes can also be a pain, though perhaps a different sort of one...

Still, I think Rangers and Fighters can be made distinct enough, so long as you try to avoid turning the Fighter into a flavorless generic catch-all for everyone who holds a sword. The key difference between those two classes is simple enough. Fighters are warriors who stand toe to toe with enemies on the front lines of battle. They can use ranged weapons, but those are usually a back-up for the real specialty of melee combat. Rangers are skirmishers and sneaks who strike weakened foes, harass enemies from a distance, lay ambushes, and hunt their quarry. They use far more mobility, have more ranged attacks, and have more tricks, but can't hold up on the front line quite as long and are not as good at fighting alongside and protecting allies like the Fighter is.

Really, if you ask me the problem isn't differentiating the Fighter from the Ranger, it is differentiating the Ranger from the Rogue. Honestly, I'd rather give the Rogue's Sneak Attack to the Ranger (at least as an alternative to their favored enemy/hunter's quarry ability), and work to build a totally different combat niche for the Rogue. Make the Ranger the "sneaky guy who is a tough warrior" and the Rogue the "sneaky guy who outsmarts his foes".
 

Dausuul

Legend
I would develop the fighter as "master of many weapons."

Each of the other "warrior classes" combines a particular fighting style with a set of special abilities. Rangers have dual-wielding and archery, combined with wilderness skill and animal companions. Barbarians have lightly armored fighting with big weapons, combined with rage and endurance. Paladins have heavily armored sword-and-shield fighting, combined with divine magic. Warlords have moderately armored sword-and-shield, combined with tactical support and inspiration.

Fighters get none of the special abilities, but all of the fighting styles. A fighter can dual-wield or shoot arrows like a ranger, fight with a big weapon and light armor like a barbarian, or tank up with full plate and shield like a paladin. Furthermore, the fighter can switch off between styles at will. Where the archer ranger has to skedaddle when the enemy closes to melee range, the fighter can drop the bow, pull out a big sword, and go to town.
 

JohnSnow

Hero
Really, trying to make clear distinctions between any different kind of non-magical class is a pain. Actually, distinguishing between magical classes can also be a pain, though perhaps a different sort of one...

Still, I think Rangers and Fighters can be made distinct enough, so long as you try to avoid turning the Fighter into a flavorless generic catch-all for everyone who holds a sword. The key difference between those two classes is simple enough. Fighters are warriors who stand toe to toe with enemies on the front lines of battle. They can use ranged weapons, but those are usually a back-up for the real specialty of melee combat. Rangers are skirmishers and sneaks who strike weakened foes, harass enemies from a distance, lay ambushes, and hunt their quarry. They use far more mobility, have more ranged attacks, and have more tricks, but can't hold up on the front line quite as long and are not as good at fighting alongside and protecting allies like the Fighter is.

Really, if you ask me the problem isn't differentiating the Fighter from the Ranger, it is differentiating the Ranger from the Rogue. Honestly, I'd rather give the Rogue's Sneak Attack to the Ranger (at least as an alternative to their favored enemy/hunter's quarry ability), and work to build a totally different combat niche for the Rogue. Make the Ranger the "sneaky guy who is a tough warrior" and the Rogue the "sneaky guy who outsmarts his foes".

On reflection, I think you might be quite correct. If there were a way to make the rogue the cunning sneak, the ranger the tough skirmisher, and the fighter the frontline combatant who's still capable with ranged weapons, I'd be totally okay with it.

I'm really opposed to two things:

1) Any class distinction that relies too heavily on restricting martial characters to a single weapon or weapon style (ranger as "archer only," or "fighters suck with bows"), and:

2) Any class distinction that results in "fighters have no skills." Most fantasy "fighters" are remarkably capable individuals, above and beyond their role in combat, and I'd like to see that mirrored in the game.

As long as they keep those two things in mind, I can pretty much live with whatever they do.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
Really, if you ask me the problem isn't differentiating the Fighter from the Ranger, it is differentiating the Ranger from the Rogue. Honestly, I'd rather give the Rogue's Sneak Attack to the Ranger (at least as an alternative to their favored enemy/hunter's quarry ability), and work to build a totally different combat niche for the Rogue. Make the Ranger the "sneaky guy who is a tough warrior" and the Rogue the "sneaky guy who outsmarts his foes".

BTW, this is why we have the same issue with the fighter, paladin, and cleric mix. It's not that you can't do good classes in any of those. It's that by the time you get through giving two of them something good, you start cheating the third a little. We don't talk about it as much because of the divine magic angle, but its exactly the same problem.

It's as if classes were designed by Epimetheus. We need Prometheus to steal us some fire. :D
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I personally hate this "give rangers two weapon fighting and archery just because" thing that D&D has going.

I prefer ranger by made in nature attuned warriors.

They are good at archery because nature produces animals and monsters that the ranger doesn't want to fight in melee due to their size, poison, disease, horns, etc.

They use two weapons and light armor because two handed weapons and shields are too heavy and chunky to travel in the woods, sands, or snow.

They know healing and poison removal because they travel far way from civilization and do not have easy access to a town healer or cleric to cure wounds and remove toxins.

They are good at stealth, detection, and wilderness survival because they often don't have back up when dealing with the mighty creatures of the wilderness and cannot afford to enter unnecessary deadly conflicts.

The fighter doesn't have those problems. They fight on clear battlefields free of roaming beasts, poisonous plants, constant exposure to the elements, and natural disasters. So they have a reason to train in all weapons, heavy armors, and multiple fighting styles.
 

I want a fighter to be a weapon master. He is better with his sword* then any other class can be. He is trained to endure and push and be the best warrior in general.

Back in 2e that ment he got weapon specilization (master, high mastery and grandmastery too if you use those books) that gave you + to hit and + to damage, and more attacks faster.

I would take the mark/defender Aura from 4e, and the idea of stances, I would mix them with lots of hp.
 


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