Concerning Feats

[Dannyalcatraz]

While I have no problem with things as they are, the sheer number of feats out there does make one sort of drool at the proverbial buffet...

Now, some feats are pretty bad choices, except for as the cost you pay to get into certain better feats or even PrCls. And honestly, some feats would have been better if they had been consolidated with others and written with an inherent cascade, like the Cleave/Great Cleave part of Power Attack's tree. Instead of being 2 seperate feats, they should have just been one feat with increasing level dependent benefits.

That said, without rewriting a host of feats this way, or doing the XP for Feat exchange, you could simply yoink Midnight's Heroic Path mechanic.

That's what I'm planning on doing for future campaigns, anyway.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Can you describe Midnight's Heroic Path Mechanics?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Simply put, each PC has a Heroic Path- kind of a heroic archetype codified into 20 levels of game mechanics- and recieves the listed benefit at each level. Their structure is kind of like a base class (or like a gestalting of a PC) but without any BAB, HP, etc., and all of the benefits are, of course, thematically linked.

So if a PC took the Child of Steel Heroic Path (I'm just making this up), he might get additional stat boosts, a bit of Natural Armor, a feat or 2, and so forth, spread out over 20 levels. Meanwhile, the equally non-existent Child of Magic Heroic Path might have additional spells, metamagic feats, and boosts to his CL.

Some of the actual paths grant abilities that would normally be class abilities, like Turning Undead, Healing abilities and so forth. A PC who is a member of a class that already has that ability would find it improved over members of the same class travelling a different Heroic Path.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ah. Thanks for the info!

 

[Artoomis]

Maybe this is just me, but... shouldn't this discsussion be in House Rules? I think you might get better suggestions there, too.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I don't know. I wasn't sure where to put this thread, actually.
I was making a commentary on the Core Rules, which allow for the standard rate of feat progression, then commenting on alternatives. Maybe it should go in the other forum.

 

[Angrydad]

A question of feats

Personally, I think that allowing players to sack XP for feats is a bad idea. Pretty soon you'll find low level fighters with more combat feats than they know what to do with, wizards who can make any magic items they want while casting maximized-empowered-still spells, and rogues raining hails of arrows on opponents. It throws off game balance, trust me, I'm a DM of 15+ years and the last thing I need is for my players to have more special abilities at a given level. They can already blast through things with 300+ HP in a round or two (they're just now epic level), so I don't think allowing the Frenzied Berserker to take more Rage related feats is a good idea.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Personally, I think that allowing players to sack XP for feats is a bad idea. Pretty soon you'll find low level fighters with more combat feats than they know what to do with, wizards who can make any magic items they want while casting maximized-empowered-still spells, and rogues raining hails of arrows on opponents. It throws off game balance, trust me, I'm a DM of 15+ years and the last thing I need is for my players to have more special abilities at a given level. They can already blast through things with 300+ HP in a round or two (they're just now epic level), so I don't think allowing the Frenzied Berserker to take more Rage related feats is a good idea.

I believe you, Angrydad. I do. And I can see how feat chains could be used to do the things you mentioned ... it's obvious that feats could be min/maxed for such purposes.

What fixates me, as it were - one of the big reasons I might support extra feats - are two scenes from Peter Jackson's ROTK:

- Remember how Legolas was so good with the bow and other things? (definitely a lot of feats there!)
But when Legolas confronted the Dead, and he shot at them, the only result was a wasted arrow (and, had it not been for Aragorn, a dead Legolas.) When you are a Two or Three Trick Pony, you're in over your head against the unexpected (Legolas didn't do so good against that balrog, either.)

- Gandalf standing behind the Gate of Gondor. Grond is breaking through. Gandalf is speaking: 'Remember that you are soldiers of Gondor! Whatever comes through that gate, you will stand your ground!'
When the trolls lead the assault through the gate, a sustained combat ensued. Not a balanced encounter where a party could rest after being depleted of spells and hit points, but a sustained battle.
Perhaps extra feats would allow the party to survive such a sustained battle, or at least last a little longer in one.
(Or how about the battle in Moria, where 80 orcs and a cave troll come in to do battle. After the party beats those foes, a THOUSAND orcs come charging after them, ala the film ...)

I know that most DMs wouldn't throw either encounter at their party. However, I would, and I wouldn't pull any punches.
A party in my game would need the extra feats to survive such situations.

I always felt strange about the idea of the party fighting one battle, resting for a day, and going on to the next battle. The unfought monsters are fresh and ready to fight, they hear a combat in the distance, and they're smart enough to come calling (the PCs would investigate!)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I always felt strange about the idea of the party fighting one battle, resting for a day, and going on to the next battle. The unfought monsters are fresh and ready to fight, they hear a combat in the distance, and they're smart enough to come calling (the PCs would investigate!)

You're not alone, and there are many DMs out there who have never seen the "X minute day" because of that playstyle.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thanks, Danny. Thanks much.

I guess I got a mindset from some of the early games I played in, too.

We took a party of 4 characters, balanced and all, into B2 The Keep on the Borderlands, during my early years of gaming.
We found this area of caves, caverns, and tunnels (it's in the module somewhere ...) and started exploring. Soon enough, we ran into monsters, and fought them.

We defeated those monsters, but more monsters - attracted by the uproar of combat - showed up almost immediately. And we heard this distant ROAR of angry ogres stomping our way.

We were cut off from leaving the tunnels and fleeing outside, or we would have done so. We retreated, covering our retreat with burning oil (the ultimate resort of 1st level characters at that time ...) and archers.
We tried to find a place to hide. We tried to obtain cover in the fire and smoke, but it didn't work out.

We finally retreated down a tunnel that, as it happened, dead ended in a large chamber. So we set up a barricade of burning oil there, flung more burning oil at the monsters beyond, and used archery.
Then the ogres arrived, charged through the fire (apparently, fire meant little to these brutes) and ...

TPK.

We never complained about the scenario. Not that it would have done any good: the DM was very quick to point out that it was OUR FAULT that we died. (We could have done this better, and that better, and so on ...)
So yeah, no sympathy, but a lot of derision for incompetence (real incompetent, unable to retreat or hide, trying to fight hundreds of monsters with 4 1st level characters, and lasting as long as we did ...)

We definitely could have used more feats in *that* scenario.

For the purposes of *that* scenario, we should have - in current terms - had what I call the Extreme Feat Scenario.

The Extreme Feat Option is:

Gestalt characters (not averaged, but best of BAB and saves.)
Double starting feats (3, or 4 if human.)
Drawbacks allow 2 feats per drawback (maximum of 2 drawbacks and 4 feats.)
2 feats per level, including 1st level.
Fighters gain fighter feats normally.
Wizards gain metamagic feats at 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.
Other classes gain feats as per normal.
Slow Advancement is an option, in which case it takes twice as long to advance, but 6 feats (2 classes x 3 feats per level) are gained instead (but if Slow Advancement is chosen, the party is stuck with it permanently.)
Gestalt characters may take levels in Feat Master (although this could be a serious mistake, and should be carefully thought through.)

In this scenario, a 1st level human fighter with 2 drawbacks could have 10 regular and 1 fighter starting feats.
A 5th level human fighter with 2 drawbacks, who had opted for Slow Advancement, would have 42 regular feats and 3 fighter feats (one heck of a lot of feats, but still a small number compared to the hundreds of really useful feats available, and the thousands possible.)
A 5th level fighter with feat master as his second gestalt class would have 52 feats and 3 fighter feats (but, wouldn't be a wizard 5, or a cleric 5, or a rogue 5, and this just might cost him his life anyways, feats or no feats ... one can specialize too much in anything ...)

If you're going to throw 1st level characters (or low level characters, period) against White Plume Mountain, I6 Ravenloft, the whole bestiary of Keep on the Borderland, or similar things, then the Extreme Feat Option is viable.

If the party has to hold the Gate of Gondor against the Morgul Host (Gandalf: 'You four, stand in front of the soldiers! You four, will spearhead the defense of the city!' You four, will stand against the Morgul Lord if he shows up!') then the Extreme Feat Option is viable. (Of course, we know what the likely response of ANY party is to Gandalf, here ...)

If gestalt characters are not used, then the Extreme Feat Option is not available, and defaults to the Feats Galore Option.
The Feats Galore Option is:

Starting feats (1, or 2.)
Unearthed Arcana drawbacks allow up to 2 extra starting feats for 2 drawbacks.
1 feat per level (including 1st.)
Standard fighter and wizard feats, and other class feats.
Slow Advancement is an option (again, once taken it's permanent: double experience needed to advance, extra 3 feats/level)
Levels in Feat Master can be taken (but is ill advised ...)

Thus, in the Feats Galore Option, a starting character could have 5 feats and 1 fighter feat to begin with, with 2 drawbacks (painful things, those.)
A 5th level fighter (Slow Advancement) would have 21 feats, plus 3 fighter feats (1st, 2nd, 4th) and those 2 painful drawbacks. Of course, he actually gained enough experience to be 10th level, but he wanted feats and so he's only 5th ...

-

Where would the Extreme Feats Option be *reasonable*?
Well ...
Enter the 7th level wizard. She has taken Gandalf's place ... has set herself alone to defend the Gates of Gondor against the Morgul Lord and his mighty Host.
Or Gandalf said something on the order of: 'I have to go save Faramir! YOU stand and hold the Gate against the enemy. These warriors cannot hold. So, I'm counting on YOU.'
And she's all alone. No party. No help (except from said useless soldiers.)

In extremis, in situations like that one, the Extreme Feat Option is justified.
Other situations from LOTR that were extremis?

- My ranger, all alone, takes on all five of the spectres on Weathertop.
- My elven fighter, takes on all nine of the spectres.
- Our party stands it's ground against those 80 orcs and the cave troll.
- Our party is surrounded by 1,000 orcs??!!! (it happened in the film)
- Our party wizard takes on that balrog, alone, while the rest of us flee. She can handle him!
- Our warrior takes on Lurtz, Ugluk, Grishnakh, and all those other orcs alone, while defending the hobbits. He can handle them!
- The party charges out of Helm's Deep, against the Uruk-Hai, alone, to hold them off while the Rohirrim reinforce the gates!
- The party rides out with Theoden in his heroic charge against all the Host of Isengard.
- My hobbit fighter is going to enter Cirith Ungol, throw down the magical gate guards, taken on the entire garrison of hundreds of orcs, and rescue my hobbit friend (kudos to Sam!)
- My hobbit fighter is going to single-handedly take on the Demon Spider Daughter of Ungoliant that NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE EARTH has ever managed to even scratch, and beat her, to rescue my friend! (kudos to Sam!!!)
- My hobbit fighter is going to charge into the Great Battle of Gondor (even though he has, what, 15 hit points?) and duke it out with the Morgul Host, Haradrim, Ringwraiths ... oh, by the way, he doesn't know how to ride a horse ... he'll do it anyways!

And of course:

My warrior (female) takes on the Morgul Lord face to face. He may have beaten that mighty angel (Gandalf) but he's not going to beat her! (and, what'cha know ... she and Merry beat him!)

Nothing like extremis.

You aren't going to find many players that deliberately choose extremis, obviously. But then again, extremis sometimes descends on the characters whether they like it or not.
Without the Extreme Feat Option, a lot of magic, and a lot of clever play, the result is going to be a lot of dead characters (there is no J.R.R. Tolkien to keep them alive, this time.)

If the Extreme Feat Option is too extreme, then default to the Feats Galore Option.
If that is too extreme, drop to the Slow Advancement Option or E6 Option or the like.
If that is too much, just use the normal feat system.

A final note: In the games I was in, we used the 1E Item Destruction rules. So all those minor magical items so popular in 3E, would have tended to be destroyed pretty quickly in combat.
And it got worse. Many DMs I played under ruled that destroyed magical items exploded. If you happened to be wearing one when it did, that was too bad (and now, all your other magical items had to save again ... I saw one character take 150 points of damage as every magical item he wore detonated.)

If you're going with the Item Destruction Rules (which I think are reasonable ... to an extent) from 1E, then feats become even more crucial.
Items can be lost and regained, but once you have a feat, you have a feat.

It's up to the DM.
If it's a safe game, with 1 encounter per day, who needs extra feats?
If it's a rough game, with multiple encounters, might consider more feats.
If it's a game of extremis, where balrogs tend to show up on a dime ... might consider Feats Galore or the Extreme Feats Option.

When the whole managerie of monsters from B2 showed up all at once against our 4 characters of 1st level, I doubt that ANY number of feats would have saved us ...

Edena_of_Neith