Converting Epic Level Beings

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Shouldn't you be comparing Gru to the 2nd Edition versions of Tiamat and Bahamut though, since the article in Dragon #170 is a 2nd Edition article?

I think the 2nd Edition stats from Polyhedron #73 would be the fairest comparison. I'll go look for those now.
 

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From Polyhedron #73 (July 1992):

Dragon, Bahamut

CLIMATE/TERAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or with gold dragon court
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Godlike (22)
TREASURE: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, S, T, U (all x 10)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -15
MOVEMENT: 18, FI 40 (C), Sw 24, Jp 18, Br 18
HIT DICE: 70 (490 hit points)
THACO: 2
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 6-60/6-60(6d10)/10-1 00(10d10)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +3 or better weapon to hit, spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 90%
SIZE: G (420' long)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 72,000

Bahamut, the platinum dragon, is the king of all goodly-aligned dragons. The ancient, wingless serpent is considered a deity among dragons and dragonkind.

Although Bahamut's immense form seems threatening, his benevolent expression displays his kindness and hints at his great wisdom. He is quick to aid the causes of good creatures -- usually by assigning other dragons to the tasks. If he feels the threat is great, he will assume a different guise and tend to the matter himself.

The most handsome of all dragons, Bahamut's platinum scales glow with a faint blue sheen. The scales are huge, thick, and virtually indestructable. Only the most magical of weapons can penetrate them. The scales shimmer as the great one walks, creating a mirror-like glare that is difficult to look directly upon. His boulder-size eyes are a pale lavender, in sharp contrast to his glistening, spiral ebony horns. Only a few living beings have ever seen this magnificent form. Bahamut chooses to wear the guises of humans, demihumans, and common creatures so he does not frighten lesser beings.

In Bahamut's lifetime, he has visited every known world and plane at least once. His insatiable curiousity has taken him to many peoples, and he has consequently learned to communicate with nearly every known race. The platinum dragon is aided in this linguistic task by his ever-present receptive form of telepathy. However, due to changes in local dialects, Bahamut may have to cast a spell to aid him so he can better converse in up-to-date terminology.

Combat: Bahamut rarely involves himself in struggles, relying on other goodly-aligned dragons and creatures to deal with the situations. However, if a situation is especially threatening or if Bahamut's curiousity is piqued enough to cause his involvement, the platinum dragon and his gold dragon court will enter the fray. When the foes are obviously evil, the platinum dragon strikes first with his concussive blast, using this breath each round as often as necessary. If the nature of the foes is uncertain, Bahamut uses his vapor breath, which puts affected creatures into a gaseous form. The dragon and his court gather up any weapons and armor, wait for their foes to materialize, and then question them -- or finish them off if the targets are unwilling to talk. The platinum dragon prefers to use his spells and spell-like abilities to aid worthy causes rather than in combat. However, if pressed, he will use these spells to fight. Bahamut uses his physical attacks as a last resort, as the great one dislikes dirtying his claws and teeth with the blood of evil creatures.

Bahamut's gold dragon court first rely on their breath weapons in combat, followed by spells. Like the platinum dragon, they prefer not to fight physically. However, they will do so if the platinum dragon seems threatened.

Breath weapon/special abilities: Bahamut has three breath weapons. The most visible breath weapon is a frosty white cone of cold 10' wide at his mouth, 250' long, and 80' wide at the base. All those within the cone suffer 20d20 + 12 hit points of damage, save vs. breath weapons for half. Any creature caught within the cone has a 50% chance to drop anything held in its hands (saving throw not withstanding), as the objects have become too cold to handle. Further, for the next four rounds those creatures suffer half movement rate and are -4 on all attack rolls and Armor Class ratings because of their bodies' uncontrolable shivering. The second breath is a whispy blue cloud of magical vapor that is 120' long, 60' wide, and 60' deep. All those caught within the cloud are reduced to half their current hit points. Those who save are reduced by one-quarter. Further, all creatures which do not save turn gaseous for 3d4 turns. All equipment and items worn do not turn gaseous, but fall to the ground. The third breath is a concussive blast of air which is 10' wide at Bahamut's mouth, 150' long, and 50' wide at the base. This horrible assault kills all creatures within its range which have 60 hit points or less. There is no saving throw. Creatures possessing more than 60 hit points suffer 60 points of damage, no saving throw. Bahamut can use one breath per round as many times a day as desired. Creatures struck by a breath weapon save at -4 because of Bahamut's awesome power.

Bahamut is able to cast at will any first through seventh level priest spell and first through ninth level wizard spell. Bahamut can cast 100 spell levels per day. For example, Bahamut can cast 20 fifth level spells or any other combination thereof to equal 100.

In addition, he has the permanent abilities of receptive telepathy and shapechange. He can become astral or ethereal at will, and he is immune to Cold and gaseous attacks.

Bahamut casts spells and uses his abilities at 20th level.

Habitat/Society: While Bahamut has been known to inhabit virtually any clime in the guise of a human or demihuman, he most often resides in an immense crystal palace behind the East Wind. Sages speculate this palace is either on the elemental plane of air or in the Seven Heavens or TriParadises. The wisest of sages believe the palace occupies a
pocket dimension between the plane of air and the Seven Heavens and that Bahamut and his gold dragon court are the dimension's only occupants. Legends say the crystal palace is covered with glyphs and wards and protected by spells humankind has yet to discover.

The platinum dragon journeys to human and demi-human lands out of curiosity. Bahamut has a fondness for the creatures and occassionally travels among them to learn about trends in their cultures, current politics, and new magical or clerical discoveries. During these forays, he is almost always accompanied by the seven gold dragons of his court -- who also assume an acceptable guise.

Sages say the platinum dragon is most fond of the form of an elderly man followed by seven yellow canaries. Other recorded forms have included a straggly-appearing urchin and his seven rag-tag friends, a prince and his carriage drawn by seven horses, and a beggar surrounded by yelping dogs. The sages are certain he has other guises, though nothing else has been documented.

Although Bahamut's court is comprised of gold dragons, he enjoys the company of all good dragons, delighting in their differences and varied personalities.

Bahamut's treasure is stored deep inside his crystal palace. Despite the immensity of the piles of gems, gold, and magical items, he considers the wealth inconsequential in the overall scheme of things. However, he uses bits of his treasurepassing out coins and gems to those down on their luck and using magic items to his own advantage.

Ecology: Bahamut is capable of eating nearly anything. He only requires sustenance while outside the crystal palace. His favorite meals include the early-morning frost on blades of grass, honey, and daisy petals. His nemesis is Tiamat, the chromatic dragon.

Gold Dragon Court: Bahamut's loyal court is comprised of seven great wyrm gold dragons. Each of these dragons has maximum hit points, is well-versed in the most effective of spells, and is intensely loyal to Bahamut. There is only a 10 percent chance Bahamut will be encountered without his court. When in his presence they appear in a form that complements his own-in their true bodies when he appears as a dragon, as canaries when he is an elderly man, and in other shapes as the situation warrants.

Sitting on Bahamut's gold dragon court is a position of unmatched prestige. Once appointed to the court, a great wyrm gold dragon serves until his or her death or until he or she is too infirm to aid Bahamut. When a replacement gold dragon is needed, Bahamut observes all gold wyrms and great wyrms, secretly testing them. These tests are elaborate, dangerous, and challenges the mettle of the greatest of dragons. Only the most noble and courageous dragons have a chance to be named to the court.

Some sages speculate that Bahamut only chooses gold dragons for his court because a hundred centuries ago the platinum dragon was gold. Sages say Bahamut's great goodness caused him to transcend his golden form and become a unique breed of dragon -- the most powerful dragon ever.
 
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Dragon, Tiamat

CLIMATE/TERAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Godlike (21)
TREASURE: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, S, T, U (all x 15)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -15
MOVEMENT: 9, FI 30 (C), Sw 12, Jp 12
HIT DICE: 60 (420 hit points)
THACO: 2
NO. OF ATTACKS: Up to 7 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS/
CLAWS/TAIL: 3-30 + 12/3-30 + 12
RED DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 3-30 + 12/24d10 + 12
GREEN DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 2-20 + 12/24d6 + 12
BLUE DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 3-24 + 12/24d8 + 12
BLACK DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 3-18 + 12/24d4 + 12
WHITE DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 2-16 + 12/12d6 + 12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit, spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 80%
SIZE: G (360/ long)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 68,000

Tiamat, called the "Queen of Evil Dragons" or the "Bane of Bahamut," is the most powerful and malicious of the chromatic dragons. Sages say no act is too evil for Tiamat -- if it nets her more wealth, influence, and causes harm to the forces of good.

The great dragon looks like a nightmare creation, sporting the necks and heads of white, black, green, blue, and red great wyrms. While the mass of huge heads seem to move independently like a group of writhing snakes, they are directed by one intelligence lodged deeply inside the dragon's massive body. Tiamat's five necks join just above massive, muscular shoulders. The colors of the necks and heads blend at the base in a swirl of colors that quickly turns jet black just below the shoulders. The black scales are small for a dragon of this size, about the size of a man's fist, and gleam like ebony pearls. The great dragon's belly is blue tinged with black, and her long, razor sharp talons are ruby red. Tiamat's great tail -- nearly twice as long as her body from chest to haunches -- seems to shift in hue as it twitches from emerald green to midnight black to sapphire blue. The queen's legs are as thick as great trees, and her wings -- black on the exterior and red as blood on the underside -- are huge. Still, they are not powerful enough to lift her great bulk with ease; Tiamat flies magically. The wings simply aid in her maneuverability.

Tiamat's teeth in her five heads are an opal white, sharp and long. And when the queen opens her mouths, the air seems to smell of brimstone and sulphur.

The centuries-old evil dragon has visited many lands in her many guises, becoming fluent in the languages of all evil creatures and all of dragonkind. She is also able to communicate in the languages of most men and demi-humans although she is loathe to lower herself to their level and do so.

Combat: Tiamat prefers to have her battles fought by troops of evil creatures loyal to her and by adult and older chromatic dragons. Despite her great power, she is fearful that direct combat with good creatures could cause her injury or death. So she prefers to orchestrate conflicts from the background. Such fights have escalated into full-scale wars between humans and evil creatures, with the humans never knowing who was ultimately behind the struggle.

When Tiamat is forced to fight, she begins her assault using all five breath weapons directed at the strongest targets. As of yet, she has found no mortal creature to survive beyond that first attack. Tiamat uses her spells to discern targets' weaknesses and motivations. She has been known to charm potential victims to learn of treasure hordes, then kill them quickly and horribly after the treasure is attained.

In her lair, Tiamat's court of five great wyrm dragons fight for her. The court is comprised of one dragon from each basic chromatic color, and each has maximum hit points.
If Tiamat suffers more than 150 hit points of damage in a combat she will automatically teleport without error to Avernus.

Breath weapons/special abilities: Tiamat's white great wyrm head breathes a cone of cold 70' long, 5' wide at the mouth, and 25' wide at the base. Creatures caught within the cone suffer 12d6 + 12 points of damage. The black head breathes a stream of acid 5' wide and 60' long. Those in the stream suffer 24d4 + 12 points of damage. The green head breathes a cloud of poisonous chlorine gas that is 50' long, 40' wide, and 30' high. Those in the cloud suffer 24d6 + 12. The blue head's breath weapon is a lightning bolt 5' wide at the mouth and 100' long. The bolt causes 24d8 + 12 points of damage. The most fearsome head, the red, breathes a gout of searing flame 90' long, 5' wide at the mouth, and 30' wide at the base. Those caught by the magical fire suffer 24d10 + 12 points of damage.

A successful save vs. breath weapon reduces the damage from any breath by one half, and creatures must make a saving throw for each individual breath weapon they are caught in. All saving throws are made at -3 because of the power of the attack. The five heads can breathe simultaneously, on separate targets or the same target, every other round.

Tiamat is immue to all fire, cold, acid, gas, and lightning attacks, and she is immune to non-magical and +1 weapons. She can travel astrally or ethereally at will. Further, she has the following abilities at will: pyrotechnics, tongues, cause fear, polymorph self, and teleport without error. Each day she can cast three wizard spells at each level from 1st through 7th.

Tiamat casts spells and uses her abilities at 18th level.

Habitat/society: Tiamat lives on Avernus, although she is able to live in virtually any clime and on nearly any plane. Her lair is a castle of immense proportions which she constructed magically out of molten lava and the bones of her victims. Although solid, the castle's exterior walls appear to flow like lava and cause most creatures to avoid the place.

Tiamat's court dwells in the castle. Sages believe the place is also populated by other guards, such as elementals, fiends, and unnamed creatures. The castle is an extension of the queen's personality -- its spires are twisted and grotesque, there are no windows, and the walls are studded with bits of sharp material and jagged bones which can injure all but the most wary. The macabre, yet impressive, structure is avoided by nearly all the inhabitants of Avernus.

The great evil dragon knows what is transpiring within every square inch of her castle and within many square miles beyond. Because of this, it is impossible to surprise her in her lair. Her treasure is vast and litters the castle, in some places it is so thick she has shaped it into walls and uses it to cover the floor. Tiamat has a precise inventory of her wealth -- down to each insignificant copper -- and she has spent decades mentally cataloging it so she knows what all the magical items can do. She uses some of the items to further her malign gains.

The queen of evil dragons spends nearly all her time within the castle. She remains knowledgable about what is transpiring on other worlds and planes through magical items, spies, and cults of humans and demi-humans she has bent to her will. On rare occasions when something has sparked her interest enough for personal investigation, she dons a human or demi-human guise and takes one member of her court, also disguised, with her. These instances have included skirmishes between various races, newly-unearthed treasure finds, and political struggles. Tiamat's favorite guises include a comely young elven woman and her escort, a young girl accompanied by her father, and an elderly sage with her grandson in tow. Sages believe she has also assumed the form of goblins, gnolls, lizardmen, and other creatures when attempting to rally others for battle. Some sages speculate that she has acted as various groups' leaders and kings, ordering the subjects to do her bidding.

Ecology: Tiamat is capable of eating anything. On Avernus she requires no sustenance, drawing her energy from the plane itself. However, when she travels to other worlds and planes she feasts upon creatures she defeats, molten objects, and the very ground. Her favorite sustenance, however, is helpless creatures; she feeds upon their abject terror before swallowing them.

Tiamat's enemies are numerous and include Bahamut and all good dragons. However, only Bahamut has been able to stand up to her might-and recorded conflicts with the king of good dragons have ended in stalemates.

Sages speculate Tiamat was born many hundred years ago during a war between evil dragons. The gods threw the combatants together into one body. And this new form demanded that the evil dragons no longer fight amongst themselves.

Tiamat's Court: The queen's court is comprised of five dragons-male great wyrms of red, black, white, green, and blue. The court is handpicked by the queen based on their loyalty and the amount of gifts and service they have provided. When a member of her court becomes too infirm, she takes the dragon to another plane, personally slays him, and immediately selects a replacement. Members of the court store their treasure within Tiamat's castle, in separate chambers which are considered their own territories.
 

What's with the smilies. :)

<edit>never mind - pc acting up - there were lots of smilies in the tiamat entry that have disappeared now. :confused:

Regards
Mortis
 

I have no idea. Those didn't appear in the scanned version, just when I hit "post". I had to manually edit them all out :uhoh:.
 


Whoa...that's a massive jump in power!

Maybe it's worth looking at Sardior as well, both in original and 3E forms, to get an idea where Gru's power might fall.
 

Should I post Sardior's stats from Dragon #37/Best of Dragon Magazine, Vol. III?

(The 3.0 version of Sardior can be found here.)
 


(Edited slightly, since Sardior's details are mixed in with the descriptions and stats of the other neutral dragons.)

In proposing this new breed of dragon, I am assuming that all these types conform to the characteristics of dragons in general, except where otherwise noted. In addition, all of these dragons share the following standard characteristics.

FREQUENCY: Very rare.
NO. APPEARING: 1-3, except in the case of the Ruby Dragon.
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon + possible magic use, except for Sardior, who definitely uses magic.
ALIGNMENT: Neutral.

The Neutral dragons are basically reclusive creatures, dwelling in out-of-the-way places, and not too receptive to unexpected visitors. Like all dragons, they get their kicks from lolling around on a pile of treasure. Being named after precious and semi-precious stones, they are especially fond of gems and jewelry. They are generally smaller and slower than other dragons, but make up for this with their outstanding intelligence and overwhelming personalities.

The Neutral dragons are all very charismatic and suave. They delight in riddling talk, and seek to entrap the creatures they encounter by charming them with their voices. Anyone not engaged in such things as combat who listens to the dragon's voice faces a 10% cumulative chance per round of being entranced. While he is entranced, the dragon has a chance of implanting a suggestion in his mind. The dragon gets one attempt per creature to suggest, and if the creature makes his saving throw by rolling the required percentage, the charm is broken for 6 rounds. The dragon will try to keep him talking, in order to try again, but this time will get only a 5% cumulative chance per round of charming the creature(s). If the dragon fails in his suggestion this time, the creature cannot be charmed again.

Going along with their intelligence and charisma, all Neutral dragons have a 50% chance of being psionically endowed. They are also telepathic, although they cannot communicate telepathically with non-telepathic creatures or characters with an intelligence below 17. Magic-using Neutral dragons employ both Magic-User and Druidic spells.

Being smaller than other dragons, Neutral dragons' fear aura in attacking is saved against at a +4 to all opponents. Neutral dragons cannot polymorph themselves, unless they know the spell. They do have the innate ability to blink 6 times per day, however, as in the spell. Particulars about each type of dragon are listed below.

RUBY

ARMOR CLASS: -3
MOVE: 12"/32"
HIT DICE: 12 (96 hp)
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE: 100% H,Ix3,Ux5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/5-40
INTELLIGENCE: Supragenius
SIZE: 36' long
PSIONICS: 344
A/D modes: All/all
CHANCE OF
Speaking: 100%
Magic-use: 100%
Sleeping: 5%
SUGGESTION: 75%

It is assumed that as dragons' M-U spells are of a special, verbal-only kind, so also the Neutral dragons' Druidic spells are of a special kind, attuned to their natures, and not requiring mistletoe, etc.

PSIONIC DISCIPLINES (where applicable)

Sardior the Ruby Dragon has 4 minor and 3 major disciplines, as follows -- Domination, ESP, Invisibility, Levitation, Molecular Rearrangement, Energy Control, Dimension Walk. All Neutral dragons consider their level of mastery for all disciplines to be equivalent to twice their age level.

SARDIOR, THE RUBY DRAGON

This is not a breed of dragon, but a unique individual. Sardior the Ruby Dragon is the Prince of Neutral Dragons. He dwells in a magical castle that roams the night sky, high up in the atmosphere. He keeps his castle moving so that it is always in earth's shadow. Often, when Sardior's castle is sighted, sages think they are seeing a reddish star making unusual
conjunctions with other stars in the night sky.

Sardior keeps a court of 5 thanes, one each of the various breeds of neutral dragons. Their names are: Hrodel (a female Crystal dragon), psionic disciplines of Empathy and Invisibility; Tithonnas (male Topaz dragon), disciplines of Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, and Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions; Smargad (male Emerald dragon), disciplines of Domination, Hypnosis, and Teleportation; Charsima (female Sapphire dragon), disciplines of Cell Adjustment, ESP, Suspend Animation, and Etherealness; and Aleithilithos (male Amethyst dragon), disciplines of Detection of Good/Evil, Detection
of Magic, Object Reading, Energy Control, and Dimension Walk.

Occasionally (10%), one of these dragons will roam the earth without Sardior and the other thanes. If encountered, the thane may reward beings that find favor with it, usually in the form of gems, but sometimes in the granting of a boon.

All of Sardior's thanes are huge, ancient dragons. It must be remembered, of course, that Sardior and company are a stay-at-
home lot, not given much to interfering with others' businesses. All the Neutral dragons honor Sardior, but being what they are, his sovereignty does not much affect their daily lives of treasure-mongering. All are agreed. however, that Sardior is the most brilliant conversationalist and raconteur of all dragons.

Sardior has two breath weapons which he can employ twice per day each: a shriek (like an Amethyst dragon) or a dazzling cloud (like a Crystal dragon). He has a ruddy appearance, but his handsome features and general grace ensure that only a very inexperienced dragon-hunter would mistake him for a red dragon.
 

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