Converting Epic Level Beings

[Krishnath]

Krishnath -- Aren't the aquatic and water subtypes redundant?

No they are not. It is a dragon that lives at the bottom of the friggin ocean, thus aquatic and water subtypes.

Also, Colossal+ is redundant.

 

[Shade]

No they are not. It is a dragon that lives at the bottom of the friggin ocean, thus aquatic and water subtypes.

I was just stating that the benefits were redundant. That, and I can't remember ever seeing any creature that has both. I could be wrong, though.

Aquatic Subtype: These creatures always have swim speeds and thus can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe underwater. It cannot also breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality.

Water Subtype: This subtype usually is used for elementals and outsiders with a connection to the Elemental Plane of Water. Creatures with the water subtype always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. A water creature can breathe underwater and usually can breathe air as well.

Also, Colossal+ is redundant.

Yeah, I always thought it was kind of silly. I prefer the Awesome size from Spelljammer: Shadows of the Spider Moon, but I'm not real wild about the name. I'd have preferred "Titanic" or "Ginormous".

 

[BOZ]

Hmm.... That is one nasty dragon.

Size/Type: Colossal Dragon (Aquatic, Water)
Hit Dice: Should probably be increased some, but by how much I do not know.
Armor Class: Natural Armor should be equal to HD -1, as it is with most dragons.
Special Attacks: Breathweapon, Constrict, Spells, Spell-like abilities, (more?)
Special Qualities: Amphibious, DR XX/epic, SR = CR + 14?, Immunities? Resistances?

let’s see…
the only other attacks I can think of would be crush and tail sweep, if appropriate since it spends most of its time in the ocean.
For SQ’s, based on other linnorms: Blindsense X ft, damage reduction X/epic (good call!) and cold iron, keen senses, spell resistance X
Amphibious won’t be necessary with the Water subtype.

Well, since it has to be at least as good (and probably better than) the toughest other linnorm, the corpse tearer, it will need at least 28 Hit Dice. Tiamat has 49 HD and Bahamut 53 HD (in their non-deity versions), so maybe we should put this fella at 50 HD?

“Middy Jr” should definitely be tougher than the corpse tearer. 50 HD works, and that’s doubling the original HD. I think he should be weaker than the non-deity Bahamut and Tiamat, but not by a lot.

Krishnath -- Aren't the aquatic and water subtypes redundant?

for dragons, the water subtype is better and should be sufficient.

It's gotta be at least Colossal, but I think Colossal+ is more appropriate.

remind me what the difference was again? I don’t remember thinking it was very significant before.

Ability scores of its "peers":
Bahamut: Str 53, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 35, Wis 36, Cha 35
Tiamat: Str 49, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 28
Corpse Tearer: Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
Increasing the corpse tearer to Colossal: Str 44, Dex 9, Con 30, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19

in keeping with my “weaker than Baha and Tia, I like your Str and Con. I hate to see a dragon get a Dex penalty, so I would give it 10. as for the mental stats, they could use a boost – at least Int 20 like in the original.

"Ginormous"

now that, I’ll go for.

The Midgard linnorm speaks the languages of all Norse dragons and can telepathically communicate with all other intelligent creatures. This is the only linnorm with this extensive telepathic ability.

some preliminary stats for the Midgard linnorm:

Linnorm, Midgard Linnorm
Colossal Dragon (Water)
Hit Dice: 50d12+X (X hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares), swim 100 ft
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +49 natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +50/+X
Attack:
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (X) and 2 claws +X melee (X) and tail slap +X melee (X)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/20 ft (X ft with bite)
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, constrict, improved grab, spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: Blindsense X ft, damage reduction X/epic and cold iron, keen senses, spell resistance X, telepathy
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 10, Con 26, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills:
Feats:

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Triple Standard?
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

COMBAT

Constrict (Ex): The Midgard linnorm deals X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Midgard linnorm must hit with its tail slap attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Skills: The Midgard linnorm has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #183 (“The Vikings’ Dragons,” July 1992, Jean Rabe), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).

 

[Shade]

let’s see…
the only other attacks I can think of would be crush and tail sweep, if appropriate since it spends most of its time in the ocean.
For SQ’s, based on other linnorms: Blindsense X ft, damage reduction X/epic (good call!) and cold iron, keen senses, spell resistance X
Amphibious won’t be necessary with the Water subtype.

All the official linnorms have 60 foot blindsense. All have spell resistance equal to CR + 11.

Add to SQ line: immunities (disease, paralysis, sleep).

“Middy Jr” should definitely be tougher than the corpse tearer. 50 HD works, and that’s doubling the original HD. I think he should be weaker than the non-deity Bahamut and Tiamat, but not by a lot.

Although...

The Midgard linnorm is said to be the sole offspring of the Midgard Serpent, child of Loki. The Midgard linnorm, of which sages believe (and hope) there is only one, is the most magnificent of the Norse dragons and rivals Bahamut and Tiamat

for dragons, the water subtype is better and should be sufficient.

That seems to be the norm.

remind me what the difference was again? I don’t remember thinking it was very significant before.

Higher damage, greater breath weapon size, greater reach.

in keeping with my “weaker than Baha and Tia, I like your Str and Con. I hate to see a dragon get a Dex penalty, so I would give it 10. as for the mental stats, they could use a boost – at least Int 20 like in the original.

Agreed with the Dex penalty. I'd raise the Int and other mental stats higher....I wasn't suggesting using that last line, just bringing the toughest official linnorms stats up to Colossal size.

 

[Krishnath]

All the official linnorms have 60 foot blindsense. All have spell resistance equal to CR + 11.

But the Midgaard Linnorm Had SR 70% which equates 14+CR, besides he is unique.

Add to SQ line: immunities (disease, paralysis, sleep).

Should probably give him some form of elemental immunity as well, cold perhaps?

Higher damage, greater breath weapon size, greater reach.

And not OGL, unless it is in the Epic part of the SRD... (somebody check that)

Agreed with the Dex penalty. I'd raise the Int and other mental stats higher....I wasn't suggesting using that last line, just bringing the toughest official linnorms stats up to Colossal size.

Ditto, as for the mental stats, I suggest using the Corpse Tearers as the base, but increasing them by 6 each, thus Int 23, Wis 26, Cha 25.
One might even consider increasing the Wis and Cha additionally.

 

[Shade]

But the Midgaard Linnorm Had SR 70% which equates 14+CR, besides he is unique.

It doesn't bother me to make it higher...I was just pointing out the baseline.

Should probably give him some form of elemental immunity as well, cold perhaps?

Good point. He probably would need at least cold resistance in the depths of the oceans.

And not OGL, unless it is in the Epic part of the SRD... (somebody check that)

It's in there.

Ditto, as for the mental stats, I suggest using the Corpse Tearers as the base, but increasing them by 6 each, thus Int 23, Wis 26, Cha 25.
One might even consider increasing the Wis and Cha additionally.

Yeah, that's looking better.

 

[BOZ]

All the official linnorms have 60 foot blindsense.

right, but he might have better. what did we give his daddy again?

All have spell resistance equal to CR + 11.

But the Midgaard Linnorm Had SR 70% which equates 14+CR, besides he is unique.

i'm agreeing with the dragon on this one.

Although...

The Midgard linnorm is said to be the sole offspring of the Midgard Serpent, child of Loki. The Midgard linnorm, of which sages believe (and hope) there is only one, is the most magnificent of the Norse dragons and rivals Bahamut and Tiamat

right. he rivals the power of those other two, which could easily mean that he comes close but isn't quite there.

Higher damage, greater breath weapon size, greater reach.

we could just give him that stuff without messing around with the size category.

suggestions, then, for Int, Wis, and Cha?

Should probably give him some form of elemental immunity as well, cold perhaps?

probably - that sounds good.

I suggest using the Corpse Tearers as the base, but increasing them by 6 each, thus Int 23, Wis 26, Cha 25.

sounds good to me.

 

[Shade]

right, but he might have better. what did we give his daddy again?

60 ft.

i'm agreeing with the dragon on this one.

Once again, I wasn't making a recommendation, simply stating what the others have.

right. he rivals the power of those other two, which could easily mean that he comes close but isn't quite there.

True enough.

we could just give him that stuff without messing around with the size category.

That is fine. I just like consistency, that's all.

suggestions, then, for Int, Wis, and Cha?

The 23 Int and 26 Wis sound fine, but I think the Cha needs to be higher. Check out what we gave his dear 'ol dad: Str 75, Dex 10, Con 65, Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36.

Dad's Cha was much higher than his other mental stats. Perhaps 28, which "rivals" Tiamat?

Keep in mind, too, that Tiamat and Bahamut don't really stack up well to true epic dragons. They're kinda wussy.

 

[Shade]

Since I had time...

Crush (Ex): When jumping, the Midgard linnorm can land on opponents three or more sizes smaller than itself as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the Midgard linnorm's body. Each creature in the affected area must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking 8d6+X points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. Thereafter, if the Midgard linnorm chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round.

Tail Sweep (Ex): The Midgard linnorm can sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects creatures four or more size categories smaller than the linnorm within a 20-foot-radius half-circle centered on the linnorm's rear. Each affected creature that fails a Reflex save (DC X half) takes 4d6+X points of damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Keen Senses (Ex): The Midgard linnorm sees four times as well as a human in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision with a range of 120 feet.

 

[BOZ]

thanks.