Converting Epic Level Beings

[Shade]

i'm going to give him Str 36 and Con 34, and stick with my original Dex of 16. those mental stats seem kind of low - and for epic critters, we usually cut some slack on the old Int score designations since the chart only went as high as 25.

That works for me.

Eternal Vigilance (Su): Cerberus cannot be forcibly moved or removed by any magical means; all such attempts fail. It is possible to use physical means to move him, such as pushing him, but he simply walks back to his post as soon as he is able.

Coolness.

 

[BOZ]

i had set his other scores as Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 20. do any of those seem too high, or about right? IIRC, the Wis was that high to keep his Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot high.

 

[Shade]

i had set his other scores as Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 20. do any of those seem too high, or about right? IIRC, the Wis was that high to keep his Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot high.

Well, are you comfortable with him being wiser than Demogorgon and have the same Int and Cha has Juiblex, then yeah. Otherwise, you might want to tone him down to Wis 26 (same as a pit fiend). The other two stats are probably fine, since Juiblex is an ugly, stupid blob.

 

[BOZ]

What would be a good amount of natural armor for him to have? For example, the ToH version has +29.

I also noticed that the 1E D&DG has "30 hp per head" listed. Do we want to give him a hydra-style head chopping thing or do we not want to go there?


OK, posting what I have so far, in homebrews. Here's the trick. Keeping in mind that our target CR is 20, we need to figure out what HD will work best given the abilities he has. Rather than throwing numbers out there, try a few variations. It's going to be somewhere between 25-50 HD, I'm sure.

Say, try him at 35 HD. Calculate his hp, saves, attack rolls, skill points, # of feats, and save DCs. Does what you come up with seem comparable to other CR 20 critters? If too low, try 40-HD, and if too high try 30. keep adjusting the numbers through trial and error until you get something that feels comfortable, and we can discuss it.

This is the method, I think, that I would like to use on epic-level beings from now on.

 

[Shade]

What would be a good amount of natural armor for him to have? For example, the ToH version has +29.

Well, tarrasque has +30, balor +19, pit fiend +23, and shivhad +26. Thus, I think the +29 works just fine.

I also noticed that the 1E D&DG has "30 hp per head" listed. Do we want to give him a hydra-style head chopping thing or do we not want to go there?

Don't go there. Neither the three-headed sirrush, the tayellah, or other three-headed critters I've seen have this weakness. A vorpal sword can still take a head, of course.

OK, posting what I have so far, in homebrews. Here's the trick. Keeping in mind that our target CR is 20, we need to figure out what HD will work best given the abilities he has. Rather than throwing numbers out there, try a few variations. It's going to be somewhere between 25-50 HD, I'm sure.

Say, try him at 35 HD. Calculate his hp, saves, attack rolls, skill points, # of feats, and save DCs. Does what you come up with seem comparable to other CR 20 critters? If too low, try 40-HD, and if too high try 30. keep adjusting the numbers through trial and error until you get something that feels comfortable, and we can discuss it.

This is the method, I think, that I would like to use on epic-level beings from now on.

35 HD gives him +35 BAB, +17 to all saves, 15 skills at 38 ranks, 12 feats (5 of which can be epic), and attack modifiers of +46.

Comparing to CR 20 peers:

Tarrasque: 48 HD, +48 BAB, +26/+26/+16 to saves, 51 skill points, 17 feats, and attack modifiers of +57

Swamp Landwyrm: 36 HD, +36 BAB, +20 to all saves, 9 skills at 39 ranks, 13 feats, and attack modifiers of +46/+44.

So, for what he is (a brute with good Ex and Su abilties), he fits somewhere between the swamp landwyrm and the tarrasque, which should work for CR 20

 

[BOZ]

Don't go there. Neither the three-headed sirrush, the tayellah, or other three-headed critters I've seen have this weakness. A vorpal sword can still take a head, of course.

LOL okie dokie

35 HD gives him +35 BAB, +17 to all saves, 15 skills at 38 ranks, 12 feats (5 of which can be epic), and attack modifiers of +46.

Comparing to CR 20 peers:

Tarrasque: 48 HD, +48 BAB, +26/+26/+16 to saves, 51 skill points, 17 feats, and attack modifiers of +57

Swamp Landwyrm: 36 HD, +36 BAB, +20 to all saves, 9 skills at 39 ranks, 13 feats, and attack modifiers of +46/+44.

So, for what he is (a brute with good Ex and Su abilties), he fits somewhere between the swamp landwyrm and the tarrasque, which should work for CR 20

well, naturally anything that's a magical beast, dragon, or outsider is going to have a high BAB. since he's an outsider with a pretty good Int, he's going to get a ton of skills. feats are an automatic function of HD. besides that, you need to consider what his role his special attacks and qualities play in his combat effectiveness.

Look at your two examples, for instance. the tarrasque has a lot more HD and attack values, and generally superior base saves. it's lacking in skills because it is unintelligent. therefore, the difference needs to be made up somewhere else. the landwyrm is a dragon, so it automatically gets some good stuff there. without looking the two creatures up, i'm going to guess that the landwyrm has some pretty superior powers to the tarrasque.

thus, it's not only these stats which matter, but the whole package as well.

by your comparison, 35-HD is way too low unless he has even better powers than the landwyrm - which i'm sure he does not. and we know he's got slightly better powers and abilities than the tarrasque, as well as the advantage of having the Outsider type instead of the Magical Beast type. thus, i have to agree that his HD makes sense to go between the only two examples of CR 20 i have seen.

if you increase the sample you gave of him,
40 HD gives him +40 BAB, +22 to all saves, 15 skills at 43 ranks, 14 feats (7 of which can be epic), and attack modifiers of +46.45 HD gives him +45 BAB, +23 to all saves, 15 skills at 48 ranks, 16 feats (9 of which can be epic), and attack modifiers of +46.
i think it's likely that if neither of those are perfect, he should be in between them.

 

[Clifford]

On the wish bone could there be a fortitude save involved. to Avoid actualy loosing a limb?

Cliff

 

[Shade]

It's not necessary. It simply does extra damage. Since 3E pretty much eliminated the loss of limbs (sword of sharpness, we hardly knew ye...) except for heads, it is simplified to simply extra damage. :\

 

[GrayLinnorm]

It's not necessary. It simply does extra damage. Since 3E pretty much eliminated the loss of limbs (sword of sharpness, we hardly knew ye...) except for heads, it is simplified to simply extra damage. :\

That was dumb. Why did they bother to include regenerate then? When we finally get around to converting the sea hermit, I would suggest keeping its limb severing abilities.

 

[Shade]

You're preaching to the choir.

I always liked the sword of sharpness, and was disappointed to see it gone in 3E. It's easy enough to house rule, though, as the DMG gives rules for damage or loss of certain body parts.