Converting the Dukes of Hell

[Kain Darkwind]

Regarding the summon chance. While the older editions had a failure chance, should our version? Pit fiends are supposedly weaker than Dukes of Hell, but they have automatic success. Lords of Hell are obviously more powerful than Dukes, and they have automatic success. The obvious medium between the two is....automatic chance of success.

Moving on from there, Abishai are all low low CR. Under 10, if I remember correctly. It wouldn't be out of line to let him summon 2d6 to 3d6 of them, if that is the only devil we are going to let him summon. I think all dukes should be at least capable of summoning something CR 13 or better, as pit fiends can summon a horned devil 2/day.


As a possibility, perhaps Malphas summons advanced (3x normal HD) abishai? He'd still need more than 1d2 with a 55% chance.


I would suggest this.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 2d6 advabced abishai (of any color) or a horned devil. The abishai are advanced to maximum hit dice. This ability is the equivilent of an 8th level spell. (Caster level 20th?)


along Shade's lines...

Summon Ravens (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 1d6 fiendish giant ravens or 2d6 fiendish raven swarms. This ability is the equivilent of a 5th level spell. (Caster level 20th)

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

A giant raven (Silver Marches) has poor maneuverability, while a giant eagle and owl are average. So I think average should be good enough.

Giant eagle and owl do 1d6 with claws and 1d8 with bite. Giant raven does 1d4 with claws and 1d8 with bite. All are Large. Obviously, he's not limited to being the same as a mundane animal, but that's a place to start.

I’d be just fine with 2 claws +34 melee (1d6+9) and bite +29 melee (1d8+4).

I'd go with something that resembles a bird's beak...maybe a heavy pick?

Ooh, good call. what else do we want to stack on top of that?

Heavy pick +34 melee (1d6+9/x4)

Didn't we decide that he could impart the flaming ability onto projectile weapons, and that the projectiles would thus carry the property?

Yes, but he can only do that once per round. Giving him a flame arrow SLA is a bonus. Couldn’t hurt, could it?

Just a thought...if we want to take his crow-like image a bit further, we could give him some omen-like SLAs as well.

That’s an idea. What is there?

Once more, I think it might be fun to run with his raven aspect and allow him to summon fiendish ravens as well.

Regarding the summon chance. While the older editions had a failure chance, should our version? Pit fiends are supposedly weaker than Dukes of Hell, but they have automatic success. Lords of Hell are obviously more powerful than Dukes, and they have automatic success. The obvious medium between the two is....automatic chance of success.

Moving on from there, Abishai are all low low CR. Under 10, if I remember correctly. It wouldn't be out of line to let him summon 2d6 to 3d6 of them, if that is the only devil we are going to let him summon. I think all dukes should be at least capable of summoning something CR 13 or better, as pit fiends can summon a horned devil 2/day.


As a possibility, perhaps Malphas summons advanced (3x normal HD) abishai? He'd still need more than 1d2 with a 55% chance.


I would suggest this.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 2d6 advabced abishai (of any color) or a horned devil. The abishai are advanced to maximum hit dice. This ability is the equivilent of an 8th level spell. (Caster level 20th?)


along Shade's lines...

Summon Ravens (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 1d6 fiendish giant ravens or 2d6 fiendish raven swarms. This ability is the equivilent of a 5th level spell. (Caster level 20th)

Ah, OK, did not think of that. I don’t have FC2 handy, but in the BoVD each of the nine lords has at least one type of devil that they can summon automatically. Some of them also have other types that they have a % chance to summon.

Here’s an idea then. Let’s say that any devil with, say, half the lord’s CR can be summoned automatically, and anything higher than that has a % chance. For the sake of argument, we can use the 1E percentage in cases like that.

We can use the summon raven ability if Shade likes it. if we are going to let him summon advanced abishai, how about instead we say they could summon normal ones automatically and advanced ones with a % chance?

I wouldn’t let him summon horned devils just because pit fiends do it. Abishai are well-suited to Admuscias and Malphas just because of their close connection to Tiamat, and the fact that they command legions of them.

 

[Shade]

I’d be just fine with 2 claws +34 melee (1d6+9) and bite +29 melee (1d8+4).

Hmmm...that's pretty poor damage output for his level. He'd almost never have incentive to fight in raven form. Perhaps we should allow him to apply his flaming blast property to his natural attacks as well?

Ooh, good call. what else do we want to stack on top of that?

Heavy pick +34 melee (1d6+9/x4)[/quote]

Hmmm....unholy is always a good option. Keen and wounding seem appropriate as well. And make it cold iron since Avernus is often part of Blood War battles.

Yes, but he can only do that once per round. Giving him a flame arrow SLA is a bonus. Couldn’t hurt, could it?

Nah, couldn't hurt.

That’s an idea. What is there?

Bestow curse seems appropriate. Maybe some divinations?

Ah, OK, did not think of that. I don’t have FC2 handy, but in the BoVD each of the nine lords has at least one type of devil that they can summon automatically. Some of them also have other types that they have a % chance to summon.

Actually, it looks like most can summon lots of devils automatically. Even lowly (CR 19) Fierna can automatically summon five barbazu or five hamatulas 3/day! So beefing up the Dukes seems appropriate, even necessary.

Here’s an idea then. Let’s say that any devil with, say, half the lord’s CR can be summoned automatically, and anything higher than that has a % chance. For the sake of argument, we can use the 1E percentage in cases like that.

We can use the summon raven ability if Shade likes it. if we are going to let him summon advanced abishai, how about instead we say they could summon normal ones automatically and advanced ones with a % chance?

I'd say let him summon lots of unadvanced abishai automatically. I'm always hesistant to use advanced monsters that don't have pre-written statblocks (like nycaloth commanders, for instance). While I'm very comfortable advancing monsters, many DMs probably are not. I'd recommend finding a core devil (or something in the CC) of closer power.

The summon ravens as written above has a similar problem...giant raven stats are in an obscure FR book, and I believe raven swarms aren't officially stated (although BoED has deathraven swarms, but aren't evil). We could state....

Summon Ravens (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 1d6 fiendish giant ravens (use stats for fiendish giant eagles) or 2d6 fiendish raven swarms (use stats for fiendish bat swarms). This ability is the equivilent of a 5th level spell. (Caster level 20th).

I wouldn’t let him summon horned devils just because pit fiends do it. Abishai are well-suited to Admuscias and Malphas just because of their close connection to Tiamat, and the fact that they command legions of them.

Horned devils aren't a bad choice, though. Essentially, any of the core devils could be attributed to Tiamat's service, although ice devils don't really make sense.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

Hmmm...that's pretty poor damage output for his level. He'd almost never have incentive to fight in raven form. Perhaps we should allow him to apply his flaming blast property to his natural attacks as well?

I agree, that is pretty weak. Not sure I want to open the can of worms of applying the flaming power on natural attacks. Maybe just increasing the base damage and/or giving it some minor special power (like Improved Grab or something). The raven form isn’t really his form for fighting – that’s for sneaking around and moving fast, really.

Hmmm....unholy is always a good option. Keen and wounding seem appropriate as well. And make it cold iron since Avernus is often part of Blood War battles.

Now, most of his fighting will be done in humanoid form. here he gets the iterative attacks with his weapon, with a mean crit and we can either make it a keen weapon or give him improved critical. How about this?:

Full Attack: +2 cold iron unholy heavy pick +36/+31/+26/+21 melee (1d6+11/x4)

Bestow curse seems appropriate. Maybe some divinations?

Actually, we had bestow curse at will already. He’s got detect thoughts, so what other divination spells could he stand to have? I know we were considering locate creature, for one.

I was looking at the SLA list that I had set up, and I realized that I had just double-listed all of Amdu’s SLAs under Mal’s. I guess we were considering which ones, if any, to copy over (for reference again he had, at will: charm monster, discern lies, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, suggestion, telekinesis; 1/day - dominate monster, symbol of stunning).

Here is the real list of SLAs so far, with even the DCs added in.

Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level 20th?)
At will - bestow curse (DC 26), detect thoughts (DC 24), dispel magic, flame arrow, greater teleport, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility, tongues
1/day - symbol of pain (DC 27).

Actually, it looks like most can summon lots of devils automatically. Even lowly (CR 19) Fierna can automatically summon five barbazu or five hamatulas 3/day! So beefing up the Dukes seems appropriate, even necessary.

I'd say let him summon lots of unadvanced abishai automatically. I'm always hesistant to use advanced monsters that don't have pre-written statblocks (like nycaloth commanders, for instance). While I'm very comfortable advancing monsters, many DMs probably are not. I'd recommend finding a core devil (or something in the CC) of closer power.

I agree with using advanced monsters that way. Using it on the fly becomes difficult at best – you’d basically have to advance the abishai yourself before the game if you knew your players might be fighting this guy. sure, a whole flock of abishai (3d6?) automatically is fine. We can update Amdu the same way, but just a little bit better.

The summon ravens as written above has a similar problem...giant raven stats are in an obscure FR book, and I believe raven swarms aren't officially stated (although BoED has deathraven swarms, but aren't evil). We could state....

Summon Ravens (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 1d6 fiendish giant ravens (use stats for fiendish giant eagles) or 2d6 fiendish raven swarms (use stats for fiendish bat swarms). This ability is the equivilent of a 5th level spell. (Caster level 20th).

That works for me.

Horned devils aren't a bad choice, though. Essentially, any of the core devils could be attributed to Tiamat's service, although ice devils don't really make sense.

For reference then, what sort of devils serve Tiamat most besides abishai? Any clues in FC2?

 

[Shade]

I agree, that is pretty weak. Not sure I want to open the can of worms of applying the flaming power on natural attacks. Maybe just increasing the base damage and/or giving it some minor special power (like Improved Grab or something). The raven form isn’t really his form for fighting – that’s for sneaking around and moving fast, really.

Good point...plus he can pepper landbound flows with SLAs from a distance.

Now, most of his fighting will be done in humanoid form. here he gets the iterative attacks with his weapon, with a mean crit and we can either make it a keen weapon or give him improved critical. How about this?:

Full Attack: +2 cold iron unholy heavy pick +36/+31/+26/+21 melee (1d6+11/x4)

I'd throw keen on there. Most of the greater aspects in FC2 have properties totalling in the +4 to +6 range.

Actually, we had bestow curse at will already. He’s got detect thoughts, so what other divination spells could he stand to have? I know we were considering locate creature, for one.

I was looking at the SLA list that I had set up, and I realized that I had just double-listed all of Amdu’s SLAs under Mal’s. I guess we were considering which ones, if any, to copy over (for reference again he had, at will: charm monster, discern lies, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, suggestion, telekinesis; 1/day - dominate monster, symbol of stunning).

Here is the real list of SLAs so far, with even the DCs added in.

Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level 20th?)
At will - bestow curse (DC 26), detect thoughts (DC 24), dispel magic, flame arrow, greater teleport, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility, tongues
1/day - symbol of pain (DC 27).

Locate creature sounds like a good add. How about moment of prescience 1/day?

I agree with using advanced monsters that way. Using it on the fly becomes difficult at best – you’d basically have to advance the abishai yourself before the game if you knew your players might be fighting this guy. sure, a whole flock of abishai (3d6?) automatically is fine. We can update Amdu the same way, but just a little bit better.

That could work.

For reference then, what sort of devils serve Tiamat most besides abishai? Any clues in FC2?

Hmmm....Goap's got erinyes under his command. Really, any of them other than ones suited to particular other layers or contradictory to her behavior could work. Malebranches seem perfect for the role.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

I agree with using advanced monsters that way. Using it on the fly becomes difficult at best – you’d basically have to advance the abishai yourself before the game if you knew your players might be fighting this guy. sure, a whole flock of abishai (3d6?) automatically is fine. We can update Amdu the same way, but just a little bit better.

Well, one way to deal with that is to stat up an advanced abishai ourselves, thus creating the statblock for those that use it. I am 100% in agreement that DMs shouldn't have to run all over the place just to figure out how to use the statblock. The entire purpose is making things easier for DMs, not harder.

As for what other devils are suited, I admit I'm at a bit of a loss. If these guys still serve Tiamat rather then Bel, maybe a fiendish dragon would work? I'd say a hellfire wyrm, but that would likely be overkill, even if the CR was revised.

Otherwise, as Dukes of Hell, they don't need to just summon devils closely associated with Tiamat. What are they associated with? Fierna can summon hamatula because they are associated with pain and the 4th Hell, like she is.

I do think we should keep the summoning automatic though. Like I said, a pit fiend (CR 20) can automatically summon 2/day a horned devil (CR 15). If you are doing percents, that is 75% of its original CR. Moving over to the demons, a balor can summon another balor. Again, automatically. We shouldn't be shy about allowing some serious EL to be summoned by the dukes. If we use regular abishai, I'd say even 4d8 isn't too serious of an impact on the CR.

 

[Shade]

I do think we should keep the summoning automatic though. Like I said, a pit fiend (CR 20) can automatically summon 2/day a horned devil (CR 15). If you are doing percents, that is 75% of its original CR. Moving over to the demons, a balor can summon another balor. Again, automatically. We shouldn't be shy about allowing some serious EL to be summoned by the dukes. If we use regular abishai, I'd say even 4d8 isn't too serious of an impact on the CR.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

Good point...plus he can pepper landbound flows with SLAs from a distance.

Landbound flows?

Do we want to go with 2 claws +34 melee (1d6+9) and bite +29 melee (1d8+4) then, or maybe bump that up to 1d8 and 1d10?

I'd throw keen on there. Most of the greater aspects in FC2 have properties totalling in the +4 to +6 range.

Keen or improved critical? How about +4 on the weapon (some of the tougher dukes should have +5 or +6 absolutely, but Mal ain’t one of them). We’ll need to change Amdusicias to +4 too since that’s where I got the +2 from.

Locate creature sounds like a good add. How about moment of prescience 1/day?

Interesting choice! I don’t usually see that one come up, but it could definitely come in handy for this guy.

That could work.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 3d6 abishai (of any color) automatically. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).

We’ll reset Amdu with 4d6 abishai, but otherwise the same.

Hmmm....Goap's got erinyes under his command. Really, any of them other than ones suited to particular other layers or contradictory to her behavior could work. Malebranches seem perfect for the role.

How about 2d4 malebranche for Malphas? Maybe 2d6 erinyes for Amdu in addition to his abishai? The CRs are under 10 for those, so I’m fine with automatic summoning.

We shouldn't be shy about allowing some serious EL to be summoned by the dukes.

You make a good point – in fact, I’d think that summoning would almost always be the first thing a devil does in a fight when facing multiple powerful foes.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 3d6 abishai (of any color) automatically. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).

We’ll reset Amdu with 4d6 abishai, but otherwise the same.



How about 2d4 malebranche for Malphas? Maybe 2d6 erinyes for Amdu in addition to his abishai? The CRs are under 10 for those, so I’m fine with automatic summoning.



You make a good point – in fact, I’d think that summoning would almost always be the first thing a devil does in a fight when facing multiple powerful foes.

I think malebranche make excellent bruisers for him to summon. They are essentially stupider cornugons (and were the same in the earliest editions, if I remember) so they work.

It was either that or 2d8 infernals; I think malebranche is the right choice.


Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 2d4 malebranche or 4d6 abishai (of any color) automatically. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).

Good? Do we want to make it twice per day, like the pit fiend?

 

[Shade]

Landbound flows?

That's what happen when your first post is lost and you have to retype in frustration!

Do we want to go with 2 claws +34 melee (1d6+9) and bite +29 melee (1d8+4) then, or maybe bump that up to 1d8 and 1d10?

Either way. The difference is almost negligible at that level.

Keen or improved critical? How about +4 on the weapon (some of the tougher dukes should have +5 or +6 absolutely, but Mal ain’t one of them). We’ll need to change Amdusicias to +4 too since that’s where I got the +2 from.

Well, since the greater aspects have total bonuses in the +4 to +6 range (that's the "plus" and the property value), I'd stick with +2 keen unholy, which is a total of +5.

How about 2d4 malebranche for Malphas? Maybe 2d6 erinyes for Amdu in addition to his abishai? The CRs are under 10 for those, so I’m fine with automatic summoning.

Yes to both.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 2d4 malebranche or 4d6 abishai (of any color) automatically. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).

Good? Do we want to make it twice per day, like the pit fiend?

Looks good. It's gotta be a 9th-level equivalent with that volume, though.

Definitely with twice per day. All the greater aspects are two or three times per day. I think limiting the Dukes (with maybe an exception for the top three or so) to twice seems appropriate.