D&D 5E Convince me that the Ranger is a necessary Class.

[Corinnguard]

Absolutely not. Nothing in any D&D book supports this, and the Ranger fantasy is not this, it is a ranging guardian of the borders of the wild with a mystical connection to nature.

Aragorn doesn’t have a science degree, he listens to the earth and knows bloody elf magic (oversimplification but basically).

Rangers should know all about the spirits and fey and monsters of the wilds, and the border towns and such that border the wild, and the natural hazards and all that, but they should neeeeever be quoting geology textbooks. Never. They know how wolves behave from experience and a bond with nature, not because they went to school for it.

5e should have kept 4e's Primal Magic because the magic of the Druid and the Ranger still deals with spirits, the fey, and the elements. Quoting geology textbooks is something a wizard would do as Arcane Magic deals with the sciences.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

5e should have kept 4e's Primal Magic because the magic of the Druid and the Ranger still deals with spirits, the fey, and the elements

Why? I don’t recall Aragorn dealing with spirits, or Davy Crockett, or Robin Hood, or Owen Grady, or Drizzt, or Minsc or any other fictional or real world examples of the Ranger archetype that I can think of.

geology

I'm not sure rangers are generally known for being experts on rocks.

 

[Minigiant]

@Minigiant Lets pivot to a more fruitful discussion wrt The Ranger.

Role in the party, and adversarial challenges that speak to that role.

So, one way to get what you want and what I want, is to keep the skill descriptions fairly simple, fairly easy to remember, etc, light on rules strong on guidance.

I agree

Currently Survival skills is this:
Follow tracks, forage, find a trail, or avoid natural hazards.

or

The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.

That ain't worth jack.
Each Skill should be described in a paragraph or two.

Survival
Survival allows you to keep yourself and others safe and fed in the wild. Or you became a persistent threat to others in the wilderness Survival allows you to follow the tracks of migrating beasts, retreating foes, traveling raiders, and any other being that travelled in the wild. It also allows you to forage for and guide allies through natural terrains and avoid natural hazards and threats like quicksand, an owlbear's nest, or a planar portal. Survival can allow you to predict the weather and find appropriate shelter from extreme climate (if not create a makeshift one of your own).

Survival can also be used for the opposite uses. You might roll a Survival to hide or falsify tracks, disguise traps as natural features, scare off wild game, or hide a campsite.

In short, keep the detailed rules in the text of the challenge that needs those rules.

This is my point.

You'd now need to actually write out all the challenges like what A5e did.
That's a lot of pages.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm not sure rangers are generally known for being experts on rocks.

Spike Growth
Stoneskin

 

[Corinnguard]

I don’t recall Aragorn dealing with spirits,

In The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Aragorn along with Legolas and Gimli traveled the Paths of the Dead in order to release the ghosts there from their curse should they come to Gondor's aid. Which they did.

As for Davy Crockett, Robin Hood, and Owen Grady, they don't exactly fit the current image of a 5e D&D Ranger. They don't cast spells. And they relied on mundane means to do stuff out in the wilderness.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

elf magic basically is a result of having a middle earth science degree in listening to the earth.

I disagree. Elf magic is intuitive, not intellectual.

that's what minigiant is trying to say i believe.

The distinction between magic as magic and magic as science is important.

5e should have kept 4e's Primal Magic because the magic of the Druid and the Ranger still deals with spirits, the fey, and the elements. Quoting geology textbooks is something a wizard would do as Arcane Magic deals with the sciences.

Agreed.

I agree

Currently Survival skills is this:
Follow tracks, forage, find a trail, or avoid natural hazards.

or

The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.

That ain't worth jack.
Each Skill should be described in a paragraph or two.

Survival
Survival allows you to keep yourself and others safe and fed in the wild. Or you became a persistent threat to others in the wilderness Survival allows you to follow the tracks of migrating beasts, retreating foes, traveling raiders, and any other being that travelled in the wild. It also allows you to forage for and guide allies through natural terrains and avoid natural hazards and threats like quicksand, an owlbear's nest, or a planar portal. Survival can allow you to predict the weather and find appropriate shelter from extreme climate (if not create a makeshift one of your own).

Survival can also be used for the opposite uses. You might roll a Survival to hide or falsify tracks, disguise traps as natural features, scare off wild game, or hide a campsite.

More text than I would use, but we aren’t worlds apart.

This is my point.

You'd now need to actually write out all the challenges like what A5e did.
That's a lot of pages.

No moreso than traps.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Aragorn along with Legolas and Gimli traveled the Paths of the Dead in order to release the ghosts there from their curse should they come to Gondor's aid. Which they did.

As for Davy Crockett, Robin Hood, and Owen Grady, they don't exactly fit the current image of a 5e D&D Ranger. They don't cast spells. And they relied on mundane means to do stuff out in the wilderness.

The Rangers and Marshals of the Old West were more like D&D Rangers thans Davey Crockett. Crockett is a woodsman, not at all involved in protecting anything. That’s a fighter or rogue with survival and nature skills.

 

[Corinnguard]

And Robin Hood is basically a Rogue (Scout).

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree. Elf magic is intuitive, not intellectual.

D&D elf magic is intellectual. It's magical science. Even the wood and dark elves. Elves teach each other magic, parent to child, master to apprentice.

That's one of the core issues with D&D fans and D&D the game.
When you pull characters from other games into D&D, their methods have to change. Because the tech, science, tools, and magic from their world are not the same in D&D or existing.

Aragorn can't find healing herbs in Greyhawk. They don't exist. And you can't heal with plants. Aragorn in Greyhawk or FR is brewing a healing potion or casting Cure Wounds.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Aragorn along with Legolas and Gimli traveled the Paths of the Dead in order to release the ghosts there from their curse should they come to Gondor's aid. Which they did

They are not nature spirits, and Aragorn can only do anything with them because of his birthright, it has nothing to do with ranger skills.

As for Davy Crockett, Robin Hood, and Owen Grady, they don't exactly fit the current image of a 5e D&D Ranger. They don't cast spells

“Spells”, as already pointed out, are just a mechanical tool to describe what the Ranger can do, and the legacy of being the Aragorn class. The Ranger archetype is many different things, but person who deals with nature spirits isn’t one of them. That would be a shaman.

If you want to say “the D&D Ranger needs so be something else”, then what it needs to be is not a spellcaster. Being a spirit dude is taking it in exactly the wrong direction.