D&D 5E Convince me that the Ranger is a necessary Class.

[doctorbadwolf]

D&D elf magic is intellectual. It's magical science. Even the wood and dark elves. Elves teach each other magic, parent to child, master to apprentice.

Support this argument, please? I have no idea where you are getting this.
Also, shamans have apprentices. That doesn’t mean they are doing science.
Only arcane magic is intellectual, and even then mostly wizardry.

That's one of the core issues with D&D fans and D&D the game.
When you pull characters from other games into D&D, their methods have to change. Because the tech, science, tools, and magic from their world are not the same in D&D or existing.

You’re inventing problems. Translating from one thing to another doesn’t mean you have to lose the spirit of what is being translated.

Aragorn can't find healing herbs in Greyhawk. They don't exist. And you can't heal with plants. Aragorn in Greyhawk or FR is brewing a healing potion or casting Cure Wounds.

You make healing potions with an herbalism kit, my dude. Healing herbs absolutely exist.

 

[ECMO3]

“Spells”, as already pointed out, are just a mechanical tool to describe what the Ranger can do, and the legacy of being the Aragorn class. The Ranger archetype is many different things, but person who deals with nature spirits isn’t one of them. That would be a shaman.

If you want to say “the D&D Ranger needs so be something else”, then what it needs to be is not a spellcaster. Being a spirit dude is taking it in exactly the wrong direction.

Spells are an integral part of a Ranger for me. I see them in Tolkein's description of Aragorn and I see it in most of the D&D iterations. While they do describe what a Ranger can do, as an abstract in the D&D rule set it fits nicely. Drizzt does not fit well in my definition of a stereotype Ranger. Minsc does, Aragorn does, Robin Hood and Davey Crocket don't IMO. Robin Hood is a Rogue.

Aragorn does not deal with nature spirits, but then there are not any nature spirits to my understanding in TLOTR, or Fey for that matter. I think both of these would be core to my understanding of a Ranger if we moved them to the standard high-fantasy D&D world. Also, according to the Bree-Folk Rangers "know things people should not know" (or something like that) and they are speaking of Ranger's generally when they say that, not Aragorn specifically.

IRL Ranger can mean two things I can think of: A park Ranger, who would be a non-combatant, or an elite special operations soldier, which would be a highly militant Rogue in D&D parlance.

IMO the D&D Ranger needs more Arcane magic, not less, to fit what I see as the prototype. While I think the number of spell slots as a half caster are ok, they need more choices to prepare than they have now. The Ranger should be more like a Gish and IMO it should be the default Gish class. Other subclasses can and do fill that Gish role, but the Ranger should be the class that fills it across the board. I think the class should be more about magic than about nature.

If you want a magic-free nature guy I would prefer a Rogue subclass fill that niche, if you want a high-magic nature guy a Druid can do that well. Ranger should be distinct from these.

 

[CreamCloud0]

If you want to say “the D&D Ranger needs so be something else”, then what it needs to be is not a spellcaster.

i admit i'll never really understand the people who say the ranger needs to be magicless, part of the fundamental archetype of the ranger to me is that of the survivalist, and that core survivalist mindset is never ignore/forget something that could be useful, in DnD magic is one hell of a useful tool, there's no way a ranger worth their salt isn't going to pick up a handful of spellcasting tricks.

 

[Minigiant]

Support this argument, please? I have no idea where you are getting this.
Also, shamans have apprentices. That doesn’t mean they are doing science.
Only arcane magic is intellectual, and even then mostly wizardry.

All Elves have the option to cast spells with INT.

I think you are getting stuck in semantics.

D&D Ranger magic is the replacement for RL Ranger science because Magic advanced first.

You’re inventing problems. Translating from one thing to another doesn’t mean you have to lose the spirit of what is being translated.

The point is the what exists in other worlds and how it exists doesn't necessarily exist in D&D or an edition of it.

Jedis don't cast spells. But in D&D 5e, Jedi cast spells because Force powers and Psionics are spells.

You make healing potions with an herbalism kit, my dude. Healing herbs absolutely exist.

The point is you can't find and eat plants to heal. In D&D, you have to turn the plants into a potion.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

All Elves have the option to cast spells with INT.

I think you are getting stuck in semantics.

D&D Ranger magic is the replacement for RL Ranger science because Magic advanced first.

No. Magic is not a replacement for science in any setting but Eberron, and even there Druidic Magic isn’t viewed as scientific like arcane magic is.
They are different, in the world.

The point is the what exists in other worlds and how it exists doesn't necessarily exist in D&D or an edition of it.

Jedis don't cast spells. But in D&D 5e, Jedi cast spells because Force powers and Psionics are spells.

The Jedi moves stuff with their mind, leaps and runs super fast, chokes someone out, whatever. Same actions. It being a spell doesn’t change what it is.

The point is you can't find and eat plants to heal. In D&D, you have to turn the plants into a potion.

Semantics, the herbs heal. Aragorn can find them. Invented problem. Aragorn had to do stuff to the Kingsfoil to heal with it, too.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

i admit i'll never really understand the people who say the ranger needs to be magicless

Because the fictional archetypes that inspired it don’t have magic. The same reason as all the other classes have what they have. And don’t have what they don’t have.

Aragorn was never a Ranger, he was a paladin with the outlander background.

 

[Minigiant]

No. Magic is not a replacement for science in any setting but Eberron, and even there Druidic Magic isn’t viewed as scientific like arcane magic is.
They are different, in the world

Cart before horse.

Rangers don't develop Botany or Zoology because Druidic magic exists and they can learn it.

Grognards wouldn't let Rangers actually learn science.

The Jedi moves stuff with their mind, leaps and runs super fast, chokes someone out, whatever. Same actions. It being a spell doesn’t change what it is

Agreed.

Point is many people want Supernatural stuff from one media to work the same in D&D.

"Jedis don't have spell slots. Why in D&D?"
"Rangers talk to talks with waving their hands and saying magic words. Why in D&D?"

Semantics, the herbs heal. Aragorn can find them. Invented problem. Aragorn had to do stuff to the Kingsfoil to heal with it, too.

Exactly.
Kingsfoil doesn't exist in 5e.

Aragorn is crafting potions with a herbalism kit or casting Cure Wounds with a spell slot.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Because the fictional archetypes that inspired it don’t have magic. The same reason as all the other classes have what they have. And don’t have what they don’t have.

Aragorn was never a Ranger, he was a paladin with the outlander background.

just because the 5e paladin vaguely lines up with aragorn's abilities doesn't mean that aragorn isn't also one of the characters who primarily shaped the archetype.

and the fact aragorn barely has magic is basically meaningless given how low magic middle earth is, the two primary users of magic are literal angels and a nigh immortal species of metaphorical superhumans.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

What I don't understand is why aren't the people who want ranger to be a rogue subclass happy with scout? Scout rogue is literally a pure martial ranger as a rogue subclass.

 

[James Gasik]

Aragorn does not deal with nature spirits, but then there are not any nature spirits to my understanding in TLOTR, or Fey for that matter. I think both of these would be core to my understanding of a Ranger if we moved them to the standard high-fantasy D&D world. Also, according to the Bree-Folk Rangers "know things people should not know" (or something like that) and they are speaking of Ranger's generally when they say that, not Aragorn specifically.

Tom Bombadil and/or his wife Goldberry?