D&D 5E CoS removed bonus action to two weapon fighting on attack my thoughts.

[Helldritch]

I have been a bit absent from the forum but I am back.

I started CoS about two months ago now with 6 players.
Right off the bat, I said that now, two weapon fighting (if you have the fighting style) won't use up your bonus action.
Here is the cast.
Mei Wan a Ranger 4 / rogue 2 (the dual wielder...), world: Karatur
Bretai Rogue (assassin) 6, world: Conan (a brother of Subotai)
JC Garant Fighter 6 (battle master), world: Modern earth (yes he has a shot gun and a .45, amo are running fast, full riot armor and riot shield. Fought with a nightstick for most of the game. He now has a silvered longsword...)
Sir Agmardan fighter 3 (eldritch knight)/ Cleric (war domain) 3, world: Krynn Knight of the sword who converted from Paladine to the worship of the light...
Lisandreanne Cleric 6 (of the Light fire domain), world: Dunadoria (homebrew)
Nurellion Wiz 6, world: Greyhawk.
All are human save for Nurellion.

All character started at level 3. Single class.
No character is better than the others. Mei is performing quite well in dmg area but so far, she is not outperforming the rest of the group. She took dual wielding and she is a x-bow expert so that she can fire in hand to hand combat without penalty. This made up for quite an interesting if not surprising dual wielder. With special holders she can recharge her hand xbow with the same attack. This make her able to shoot 3 bolts per turn with her dual wielder and the bonus attack from the xbow feat. At first I was afraid she would be OP but she's not.

Fights are relatively smooth and most lasts from 6 to 9 rounds. The fun part is that Mei runs out of bolts at round 6 (where she can only fire two bolts) as her special holders can only hold 18 bolts.

Facts:
I use random encounters
I make sure that they do not have only one encounter per day
Not all encounters are fights.
Players do use the dodge action to mitigate dmg. And yes it does save their asses quite often.
Players are not noobs. Some of the fights almost killed them early on and even now it is not something they want to do all the time.
I did adapt the adventure to 6 players.
Irena/Tatyana is now with Sergei, Strahd is quite angry with them. So at least one encounter per night is with some minions of Strahd. They have refused an official invitation to meet him (how rude of them...).

Back to the dual wielding...
So far as I have said, Mei is not outperforming the rest of the group dmg wise. She is still at 16 dex as she took the sharp shooter feat. If I compare this group with the other one that ran CoS I'd say that they are doing quite well. Fights are a bit longuer but still in an acceptable range. The fact that the fighters are "tanking" when not outdoor saves a lot of dmg and frees the healer to happily apply sacred flames all over the enemies. Cantrips are ruling dmg for the moments as players dread the Strahd appearences.

What I am not sure of...
Is Mei not OP because most of my important fights are above the 6 rounds mark?
Is Mei not OP because there are no Hand X-bow in Barovia so she has to be careful with her amunitions?
Is Mei not OP because she did not take the archer style, barring her from the +2 to hit? (but there she'd lose her 3rd shot...)

What are your thoughts?

 

[Phazonfish]

I would like to point out that RAW you cannot dual wield hand crossbows because they are not melee weapons. The PHB states "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

 

[ccs]

I would like to point out that RAW you cannot dual wield hand crossbows because they are not melee weapons. The PHB states "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

Yeah, I think the OP knows this as they included this bit: "With special holders she can recharge her hand xbow with the same attack." up there in their description.

 

[Phazonfish]

Yeah, I think the OP knows this as they included this bit: "With special holders she can recharge her hand xbow with the same attack." up there in their description.

I thought that was just to indicate the ability to reload despite not having a free hand (and not taking an action).

 

[LapBandit]

I've homebrewed it out as part of the Dual Wielder feat which is now:

You can wield non-Light weapons when you dual wield.
Your offhand attack is part of your Attack Action.
When you hit with an opportunity attack, roll all weapon dice (both hands) + stat modifier.

Does not work with Monk Martial arts Bonus Action Unarmed attack. You can't dual wield to gain an extra attack as a monk.

 

[Helldritch]

I know that dual wielding isn't supposed to be with hand x-bow. It was part of a character concept we thought could be cool (and it is). My only worry was that it might get too powerful. So far it is not the case but as I have stated, my main concern is if it is only because of how I run my games that it is not OP or if everything is working as planned...

The concern is not necessarily with the hand xbow but the removal of the bonus action requirement. Hand xbow are no better than short sword and in a sense, weaker than the rapier/short sword combo that a dual wielder could use (or even rapier/rapier). Here the goal was to have something cool and on that it is working as intended.

Did other DM try to remove the bonus action requirement and did it work as planed or am I missing something that in 2 to 4 levels will make my head spin?

 

[thethain]

Just FYI, RAW the town of Barovia and Vallaki have all PHB items up to ~25g, which includes crossbow bolts.

In fact, RAW there is no different in hand, light or heavy Crossbow bolts. You can use the same ammunition for any of the weapons. In fact, many of the vistani are "Bandit" NPCs, which use light crossbow and therefore, some method of supplying crossbow bolts exists in barovia.

Honestly, the rules have been changed in favor of this particular player in multiple ways:
Two Weapon Fighting ability and fighting style applying to ranged weapons.
Ignoring the Ammunition Property of hand Crossbows.
Dual wield attack not consuming bonus action.

The game is *roughly* balanced as written. When you bend them, they bend. She will get even more powerful once she grabs 5th level ranger and then has 4 attacks a turn (at level 7).

Unless you made a big change to cantrips, I do not believe they are "Ruling the damage at the moment", the cantrips at this tier are doing 2d8 (9 on average) once per turn. With a +3 mod, the rogue/ranger can do 3d6(h. xbow x3)+9(mod x3)+1d6 (sneak) per turn or 23 damage on average. In addition, the crossbow attacks have potential to crit, where sacred flame does not. Now there is a huge caveat to this, and that is that there are many creatures in Barovia that are resistant or immune to non-magical/silver damage. But from an optimization standpoint, your wizard should probably be casting magic weapon on the main hand crossbow in those situations(although few wizards want to concentrate on buffing another player).


In the end, if the player's aren't complaining, you probably are just making yourself worry for nothing.

 

[jgsugden]

If there are concerns that this is too strong in general, you might still allow it if the off hand is a d4 weapon.

 

[jaelis]

It's only too strong if there is some way to take advantage of the bonus action you've recovered.

For instance, Dual Wielder feat + Polearm Master feat with, say, a quarterstaff and a longsword. That would give you both the extra attack from TWF and from PM. It would probably be better than using a glaive for a PM build (except probably for fighters with the additional attacks.)

I would also worry about rogues who could TWF and still use cunning action to hide or whatever.

 

[Helldritch]

@thethain

Xbow feat does allow the character to ignore the loading property of xbow. So I only did modify the dual wield to be used with hand xbow. She has to use special bolts that she makes to be able to shoot that much bolts. So she is restricted to 18 shots + 6 bolts with crystal vials filled with holy water made to shatter upon impact. More or less 6 rounds. So far damage wise, she is not that ahead of the other players as she gets out of amunitions very fast. Most important combats are above the 6th round duration with some that went as high as 12! With more attack she'll only run out of amunition faster. But I would tend to agree that the dmg burst might be something to give me some worries...

So far no players made any negative comments on her dmg. The +2 to hit from archery is sorely missed as she do hit that often. I guess that this will correct itself when she raises her dex to 18...

@jaelis
She is using her bonus action to dash, disengage and hide. So far it hasn't been a problem. I don't know if she will raise her ranger level or if she will go to the rogue instead. RP wise, both are acceptable.