Cost to add +1 ability to Specific Weapon

[Cheiromancer]

I'm leaning more and more to the idea that specific powers are flat costs; they don't interact with plussed special abilities or enhancement bonuses.

Of course this seems to mean that the costs of abilities like Echo and Frost Brand can be reverse engineered and applied to other weapons "without restriction".

One doesn't necessarily imply the other... and I'm still unconvinced of the first

-Hyp.

You don't think that Echo and Frost Brand are magical abilities?

 

[Hypersmurf]

You don't think that Echo and Frost Brand are magical abilities?

I don't think that 'Echo' is a magical ability that exists outside of the Crystal Echoblade.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

I don't think that 'Echo' is a magical ability that exists outside of the Crystal Echoblade.

-Hyp.

So you start with a crystal echoblade and amp it up. Duh!

 

[Cheiromancer]

So you start with a crystal echoblade and amp it up. Duh!

But what if you want a crystal echoclub?

I don't think that 'Echo' is a magical ability that exists outside of the Crystal Echoblade.

If it's a magical ability then it can be added to other magic items with virtually no restrictions. A flat "no" hardly counts as "virtually no restrictions." And once it is added to another magic item, then it would exist outside the Crystal Echoblade.

(I'm not comfortable with these abilities being reverse engineered and scattered all over the place. But I'm finding it difficult to find a convincing reason why the rules wouldn't allow it. Besides rule 0, that is.)

 

[hong]

But what if you want a crystal echoclub?

Not nearly stylish enough.

But a crystal echokatana, that's okay.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If it's a magical ability then it can be added to other magic items with virtually no restrictions. A flat "no" hardly counts as "virtually no restrictions." And once it is added to another magic item, then it would exist outside the Crystal Echoblade.

Seeking is a magical ability. If you attempt to apply it to a melee weapon, you get a flat 'no'.

Heavy Fortification is a magical ability. If you attempt to apply it to... well, any weapon at all, you get a flat 'no'.

Can all magical abilities be added to other magic items with virtually no restrictions? Or can magical abilities appropriate to the item in question be added to other magic items with virtually no restrictions?

-Hyp.

 

[Cheiromancer]

NB: (I might misquote the text a bit in this post- I don't have the MIC with me.)

Seeking is a magical ability. If you attempt to apply it to a melee weapon, you get a flat 'no'.

Because the seeking ability says "Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability." Specific trumps generic.

Heavy Fortification is a magical ability. If you attempt to apply it to... well, any weapon at all, you get a flat 'no'.

It's listed with the abilities listed under "Armor" and so it makes sense to restrict it to armor. But it is not limited to "Adamantine Full-plate". And an attempt to so restrict it would just be a rule 0. A restriction based on where the ability is given should be to items in that same category. You could rule that echo is restricted to specific weapons, but what's to prevent a player from saying "I am making a specific weapon; the crystal echokatana of hong."? Or maybe they'll add it to a frost brand or other specific weapon.

Can all magical abilities be added to other magic items with virtually no restrictions? Or can magical abilities appropriate to the item in question be added to other magic items with virtually no restrictions?

-Hyp.

In the absence of specific text saying otherwise, I'd say that armor properties are appropriate for armor, and weapon properties are appropriate for weapons. The details of a particular ability might rule out some applications: if an ability enhances a slashing ability, it might not make sense to apply it to a bludgeoning weapon. Now I suppose you can say that the text at the beginning of the section on specific weapons rules out (as inappropriate) everything but the exact type of weapon listed there. Which can then be the base for further enhancements (treating the specific property as a flat cost, most likely).

Thing is, you are taking an inferred rule ("echo is inappropriate except on longswords") and saying it trumps a specifically stated rule ("magical abilities can be applied with virtually no restrictions"). Maybe this is a legitimate way of interpreting the rules, but I'd prefer to give precedence to something explicitly stated over something inferred to be implicit in the text.

 

[gnfnrf]

Right, one more pass.

So is a Holy Avenger a +2 cold iron longsword with a +110,000 flat cost, or a +5 holy cold iron longsword with a +20,000 flat cost?

The first. (Note that upgrading it to +3 or adding keen doesn't change what a paladin gets, a +5 holy weapon).

Doing it the other way is upgrading the special ability, which requires DM adjudication.

Is a Dwarven Thrower a +2 warhammer with a +22,000 flat cost, or a +3 Returning warhammer with a -2,000 flat cost?

Similarly, the first, though in this case, upgrading it affects both "modes," due to the wording.

This isn't complicated. Read the weapon description. When it says the type of weapon ("longsword" or "dagger") read what properties it assigns to it ("+1" or "+3 keen"). That is what you use to calculate the standard upgrade price. The remaining powers don't have a "fixed cost", they aren't used in calculating the upgrade price at all. You don't even have to know what they are.

In the examples you gave (and also the Sword of the Planes), this comes out a bit funny. But in nearly every other weapon in the DMG and MIC, there are no problems at all.

This may not be how you want to upgrade weapons. This may not be the best way to upgrade weapons. But this is how they are upgraded according to the MIC.

--
gnfnrf

 

[pawsplay]

Yes it is.

no, it's really not. First of all, the axe is restricted in use to certain alignments, so strictly speaking, wouldn't it be cheaper to upgrade? Second, relics are a special case. They require a feat or an investment of divine spellcasting to use, so their costs are going to be juked all over the place.

I'm inclined to say the MIC "guidelines" are not only messed up, but inconsistent.

If that's the best example, that demonstrates little except you should never use the MIC "rules" for upgrading anything. That is an amazingly bad example.

 

[hong]

no, it's really not.

Yes, it really is.

First of all, the axe is restricted in use to certain alignments, so strictly speaking, wouldn't it be cheaper to upgrade? Second, relics are a special case. They require a feat or an investment of divine spellcasting to use, so their costs are going to be juked all over the place.

However, none of this has any effect on the basic rule: treat the plus as separate to the funky stuff. The fact that the funky stuff has some funky price attached is irrelevant.