Crafting

[pmlyon]

I have a question about the craft skill. I’m pretty sure I’m following the RAW, but maybe I’m making a mistake here.

One of my player’s has +20 craft bow skill. He wants to make a +4 Str composite longbow. We figured that with average rolling, it would take him about 7 weeks to make.

100gp base + 400gp Str bonus = 500gp price = 5000sp
10.5 avg roll + 20 skill = 30.5
30.5 * DC 23 = 701.5sp/week
5000sp / 701.5sp/week = 7.12 weeks

My problem is that this seems like an excessive amount of time to craft a bow because of the strength rating. Without the strength rating, a composite longbow would take about 2 weeks to make. That means that he has to spend over 3 times longer on the bow, simply for using stronger materials for the strength rating. Does this not seem odd to anyone?

The other problem is that to masterwork a bow, he is looking at an additional 5 weeks. What incentive does he have to craft his own bows (part of his character concept) when it is far easier and quicker to simply buy one?

Also, all these problems are occurring with a character who has a +20 in a skill. How exactly are bows supposed to be created for the general populace? Your average smithy wouldn’t have that high a score (I wouldn’t think). It would take them forever to craft a bow, especially when you consider that missing the DC by 5 ruins your materials.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Paul

 

[Infiniti2000]

You pretty much have it right. The craft rules suck for adventurers. Keep in mind that if you assume average rolls, you might as well just take 10. You can also use a few assistants, who can take 10 as well and give you +2 cumulative per assistant. So, given 5 assistants, that would shave a couple of weeks off the crafting time. Additionally, with even just 2 assistants, you could up the DC by 10 to 33, still take 10 (total = 34) and speed up the crafting time.

 

[Prism]

We use the craft point optional rules in unearthed arcana in one of our campaigns because of this problem

In another campaign we 'winter' each year and therefore have 4 or so months to use our craft skills, but thats mainly because the campaign is set in an ice age

 

[pmlyon]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one running into this problem!

One thing I was thinking of doing is just making each craft represent a day of work, instead of a week. Does this seem like overkill?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

One thing I was thinking of doing is just making each craft represent a day of work, instead of a week. Does this seem like overkill?

Well, it'll make *everything* craft quicker - but since that's the way magic item creation is done (1 day / 1,000 gp), it may not make much of a difference.

You'd also get slightly odd situations where an accomplished craftsman can turn out absolutely ridiculous numbers of low value items in any given day. Take, for example, a nice silver spoon (costing about 5sp) with a DC of 15.

A journeyman craftsman (skill bonus +5) can make 15 * 15 = 225sp worth of spoons in a day, or 45 spoons.

Make it a cheap wooden spoon (2 cp, DC 5), and the same craftsman can make almost 400 of them in a single day.

On the other hand, your players are probably not interested in crafting cheap stuff, so maybe this won't be a problem, but it's something to look out for.

 

[Delemental]

You'd also get slightly odd situations where an accomplished craftsman can turn out absolutely ridiculous numbers of low value items in any given day. Take, for example, a nice silver spoon (costing about 5sp) with a DC of 15.

If it did become a problem, one could always include a rule that a person can only craft a number of items perday equal to their skill total in the relevenat Craft skill. I wouldn't have a problem with someone with 20 ranks of Craft (Spoonmaking) being able to crank out 30-40 of them a day.

 

[Crothian]

Its not really that odd, craft is a patients man skill. Ya, its going to take a while but a serious craftmans will have a really good craft skill. So, leave it to the proffessionals.

 

[kigmatzomat]

My problem is that this seems like an excessive amount of time to craft a bow

With all the wood cutting, horn trimming, bone shaving, and laminating (aka gluing) required, it could easily take 6-7 weeks to complete a composite bow from a couple of chunks of wood, horn, and bone.

Here is a website on bowmaking. He makes a simple composite bow and lets it sit for 3-6 weeks just for the glue to dry. He doesn't even go for anything fancy, just some sinew backing.

Also, all these problems are occurring with a character who has a +20 in a skill. How exactly are bows supposed to be created for the general populace? Your average smithy wouldn’t have that high a score (I wouldn’t think). It would take them forever to craft a bow, especially when you consider that missing the DC by 5 ruins your materials.

First off, the general populace doesn't have the gold to buy composite bows. Even if they did, they don't have the strength to use a +4 strength bonus. A well-made bow will last a lifetime so odds are they didn't make them often. (Besides, isn't that what winter's for? Tool maintenance and indoor crafts?)

As for the skill of a professional bowyer, this is their career. Assume max skill points (HD+3), skill focus +2, masterwork tools (+2), at least one apprentice (+2) and their prime stat in int (+2 from elite array). Each DM is different about the HD of commoners but I use 4th level as the minimum for a guildmaster so 4+3+2+2+2+2=15. Take 10 and he can churn out the bows in 8.5 weeks.

My problem is that this seems like an excessive amount of time to craft a bow because of the strength rating. Without the strength rating, a composite longbow would take about 2 weeks to make. That means that he has to spend over 3 times longer on the bow, simply for using stronger materials for the strength rating. Does this not seem odd to anyone?

It's not "just" stronger materials. Heck, it probably isn't any different material, other than the glue. It's a different design. The wood has to be thicker to have the extra oomph but if it is too thick it will crack instead of flexing. You have to be much more careful about shape of the wood and the laminates.

The other problem is that to masterwork a bow, he is looking at an additional 5 weeks. What incentive does he have to craft his own bows (part of his character concept) when it is far easier and quicker to simply buy one?

None, other than pride or being cheap. He's an adventurer, not a bowyer. He can sit and make bows when he retires.

 

[Crothian]

As for the skill of a professional bowyer, this is their career. Assume max skill points (HD+3), skill focus +2, masterwork tools (+2), at least one apprentice (+2) and their prime stat in int (+2 from elite array). Each DM is different about the HD of commoners but I use 4th level as the minimum for a guildmaster so 4+3+2+2+2+2=15. Take 10 and he can churn out the bows in 8.5 weeks.

Skill focus is +3, and for a bowyer tackling something like this I'd imagine a second apprentice and possible another feat that would increase the craft skill as well. And if its a magical society, chances are he could have crafting tools better then masterwork.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Sorry, I'm still running 3.0 so I occassionally miss nuances in 3.5. It's hard to argue how many apprentices a craftsman will have or need so I decided to be conservative. I wanted to point out it didn't take any kind of crafting god to handle 99% of the work.