D&D 5E (2014) Crawford on Stealth

[dco]

Again, passive and active are two different activities, even though they aim for the same goal. You're right, the PBB isn't implying re-rolls, but this isn't a re-roll.

If you are using a passive skill and a skill roll at the same time for the same activity then you are using a reroll with a fixed value. The PHB is saying passive skills substitute rolls, they don't complement them to boost their value.

 

[nswanson27]

If you are using a passive skill and a skill roll at the same time for the same activity then you are using a reroll with a fixed value. The PHB is saying passive skills substitute rolls, they don't complement them to boost their value.

Again, they are two separate activities. One is consciously put forth by the player, and one is subconscious. They are different. I see what you're trying to say, but I don't agree that it's the correct way to read the rules. You're trying to pull these things together as one, which I don't see supported by the rules.

 

[Ristamar]

It's not technically occuring at the same time. You're not required to use an action to resist an opposed roll which is essentialy the role of a Passive Perception score when an opponent or object is hidden.

A character can make multiple attempts at the same task unless the DM dictates the fail state circumstances won't allow it. A character can usually take an action to search even after his Passive Perception has failed.

Call it a reroll if you'd like, but it fits within the current structure of the rules.

 

[dco]

Again, they are two separate activities. One is consciously put forth by the player, and one is subconscious. They are different. I see what you're trying to say, but I don't agree that it's the correct way to read the rules. You're trying to pull these things together as one, which I don't see supported by the rules.

I don't understand this thing about different activities.
If I remember well the guy in the podcast is saying the passive skill is the floor in the case of a roll. That's applicable to the same activity or challenge. That's wrong according to the PHB.
He also says passive perception is always on, wrong again according to the PHB, because the passive check is there to substitute a dice roll, if the DM calls for dice rolls there shouldn't be any passive checks for the same thing at the same time so it can not be always on. It is clear:
"A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any dice rolls...can represent the average result...or....determine whether the characters succed at something without rolling dice."
"An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when the character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure...If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success-the creature overcomes the challengeat hand. Otherwise, it's a failure,.."

There is nothing there about conscious or subsconscious activities, time or any other irrelevant metric, if there is a chance of failure to overcome a challenge there are 2 options, dice are rolled or a passive skill value is used. Not both. There is nothing there saying that you can ignore the roll and choose the passive value if your skill roll is lower than it. If we are talking about different actions and challenges it is the same thing, you apply one or the other for each one, consequently the passive skill can not be the floor for a dice roll.

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

This is why I differentiate between perception and investigation. Perception in my games is house-ruled to be passive *only*. You either notice something or you don't. Investigation is for when you want to specifically look for something specific. Like, "I'm going to search this wall for a secret door,".

I also differentiate between what can be noticed and what can be found. Perception uses all your senses and is part of the subconscious mind working in the background. So there are some things that, no matter how good you are at Investigation, you won't find by actively looking for it. Your conscious reasoning processes get in the way, basically.

The best example of all of this that I've so far come up with is losing your keys. You can look around for them, tip over furniture, pull out all the couch cushions, methodically search each 1 square foot of a room, and yet not find those bloody keys. And then the next day you're just doing your thing and suddenly you notice them out of the corner of your eye, sitting in the most obvious of damn places like some fairy was playing tricks on you the previous day.

 

[Lanliss]

like some fairy was playing tricks on you the previous day.

In D&D that is a real possibility.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I don't understand this thing about different activities.
If I remember well the guy in the podcast is saying the passive skill is the floor in the case of a roll. That's applicable to the same activity or challenge. That's wrong according to the PHB.
He also says passive perception is always on, wrong again according to the PHB, because the passive check is there to substitute a dice roll, if the DM calls for dice rolls there shouldn't be any passive checks for the same thing at the same time so it can not be always on. It is clear:
"A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any dice rolls...can represent the average result...or....determine whether the characters succed at something without rolling dice."
"An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when the character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure...If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success-the creature overcomes the challengeat hand. Otherwise, it's a failure,.."

There is nothing there about conscious or subsconscious activities, time or any other irrelevant metric, if there is a chance of failure to overcome a challenge there are 2 options, dice are rolled or a passive skill value is used. Not both. There is nothing there saying that you can ignore the roll and choose the passive value if your skill roll is lower than it. If we are talking about different actions and challenges it is the same thing, you apply one or the other for each one, consequently the passive skill can not be the floor for a dice roll.

"That guy in the podcast..." Yeah, he WROTE THE RULE. I think he knows what he's talking about.

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app

 

[Maxperson]

From the book:
"A passive check is a special kind of abilily check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly..."
Average is not minimum.

Which makes no sense for passively finding most hidden things. When you walk into a room with creatures hiding, you are most likely not making repeated checks, so your average should not be used. The same when walking past a trap or secret door. Instead, you are in a situation where only a single check is made. It would be different if you were camped on one side of a room and the secret door was on the other and you have hours to notice it.

 

[Arial Black]

When you take the Hide action in combat, or "try to escape [your] foes' notice" out of combat (It doesn't matter which. There's no difference.), you are hidden "ntil you are discovered or you stop hiding", which means that in a contest between a creature that's trying to hide and one that's trying to notice hidden creatures, the one hiding wins a tie by default because the situation before the contest was that the creature was indeed hidden, as determined by the DM.

This is the text for the Hide Action In Combat:-

"When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules
in chapter 7 for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the “Unseen Attackers and Targets” section later in this chapter"

If you succeed, you gain the benefits. You didn't have them before, because you were not hidden before.

If you were already hidden, you wouldn't take the Hide action to try to gain what you already have!

Upshot, you try to hide in combat because you are not currently hidden! On a tied Perception/Stealth contest, the situation remains unchanged. In this case it means you remain un-hidden.

 

[Caliban]

Which makes no sense for passively finding most hidden things. When you walk into a room with creatures hiding, you are most likely not making repeated checks, so your average should not be used. The same when walking past a trap or secret door. Instead, you are in a situation where only a single check is made. It would be different if you were camped on one side of a room and the secret door was on the other and you have hours to notice it.

It says "can ", not "always " or "must". It could also represent something else.