D&D General Creating a Pride Flag for my D&D setting

Yaarel

He Mage
No, humans evolved to live in groups. "Society" is all the extraneous, non-natural stuff people have added to make these groups work in a way not ruled by base instincts.
What you are saying disagrees with what scientists say.

Whether animal behavioralists, neuropsychologists, anthropologists, sociologists, historians, archeologists, etcetera, all agree that the formation of a society, namely the learned group behaviors as opposed to instinct, is fundamental to the human species. Perhaps historians especially view the society and its cultural relativity as the primary mode of human identity constructs.



That is not entirely true. Ancient Greeks and Romans viewed being penetrated as being a woman's role and forbade "real men" from engaging in such activities under great societal pressure (even to the point of viewing a man performing oral sex on a woman as wrong).
Yes, penetration=femininity is a Hellenistic philosophical ideal, evident in philosophical debates. However, we likewise know from the Hellenistic comedies that many men did indeed enjoy penetration. Avoiding penetration is something like "polite" and "civil", whereas male-male penetration is "wilderness". Both happen. Likewise we know about Hellenistic transgender, intersex, and other identities.



The Aztecs, despite having a god of male homosexuality, made homosexuality a capitol offense--as I mentioned earlier, I've read it's because gay couples don't produce new taxpayers--but they also put men captured in battle but who weren't sacrificed in the same category as gay men as being "lesser."
I am less knowledgeable about Indigenous South Americans and Central Americans. But I am skeptical about that interpretation because of other traditions that I am aware of, as well as historical reports from European Christian missionaries.



In addition, in many cultures, third genders were assigned to people were intersex or who didn't fit societal roles properly, like an "effeminate man," not necessarily because they are what we would call transgender or non-binary. I'm sure many of them were transgender or nonbinary, of course, but it's doubtful all of them were.
Some cultures have thirdgender. Many cultures have two genders. The cultures that have thirdgender organize the understanding of it differently from each other.



Yes, and again, this is still because historically (and it doesn't matter if you're counting two centuries or two millennia here), people have been oppressed for being "wrong" no longer have to be ashamed of who they are.
It is accurate to emphasize how the achievement cis-hetero supremacy is recent and artificial.



If you have a fantasy race in a fantasy world that doesn't have a history of oppression, why would they be proud of their sexuality? It's completely normal. It's like being proud for having two hands when barring accidents, every member of your species has two hands.
Having a male body is different from having a female body, or an intersex body.

Consider, for many gay men, the male body of their partner is precisely what matters. For other gay men, it is the gender of their partner that is fundamental to ones attraction.

Each kind of body, each kind of gender, each kind of community is a reason to be proud of ones own identity.



It comes across as somewhat homophobic or transphobic to claim that samesex couples or trans persons are unable to feel pride in who one oneself is.



I really don't know what nationalistic jingoism has to do with anything.
Patriotism is a near-universal example of human pride in ones own identity group. Pride is intrinsic to identity. It has little or no dependency on oppression.
 
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Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Patriotism is a near-universal example of human pride in ones own identity group. Pride is intrinsic to identity. It has little or no dependency on oppression.
Patriotism is the culmination of In-group Out-group identity politics.

Unless you have an out-group there is no "Pride". There is only "The people who are here".

The Out-group not being part of the In-group is the most basic starting point for biased treatment.

In a society where all sex, gender expression, and sexuality is part of the "In-group" and there is no othering or oppression or "They're not part of our group" mindset there is no need to create distinction and pride.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Patriotism is the culmination of In-group Out-group identity politics.

Unless you have an out-group there is no "Pride". There is only "The people who are here".

The Out-group not being part of the In-group is the most basic starting point for biased treatment.

In a society where all sex, gender expression, and sexuality is part of the "In-group" and there is no othering or oppression or "They're not part of our group" mindset there is no need to create distinction and pride.
I agree to some extent.

The construction of any "identity" presupposes other identities that differ.

That said, the "in group" can be complex, comprising various identities, with diverse specializations.

Structural constructs tend to default to binaries, with only one identity in power, and every other identity conflated as if interchangeable.

Nevertheless, more sophisticated and egalitarian social structures can and do exist.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I agree to some extent.

The construction of any "identity" presupposes other identities that differ.

That said, the "in group" can be complex, comprising various identities, with diverse specializations.

Structural constructs tend to default to binaries, with only one identity in power, and every other identity conflated as if interchangeable.

Nevertheless, more sophisticated and egalitarian social structures can and do exist.
They can and do. But they aren't the reason Gay Pride exists. Nor the rainbow flag or any of the various further flags tied to this community.

Centuries of oppression and growing recognition, equality, and safety are.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
What you are saying disagrees with what scientists say.

Whether animal behavioralists, neuropsychologists, anthropologists, sociologists, historians, archeologists, etcetera, all agree that the formation of a society, namely the learned group behaviors as opposed to instinct, is fundamental to the human species. Perhaps historians especially view the society and its cultural relativity as the primary mode of human identity constructs.
You are misunderstanding what I'm talking about. Especially since you basically just repeated what I said. Society is not the same as social behaviors.

Society has only barely affected our evolutionary path, and then only in the sense that societies that live in different parts of the world have different adaptations, such as not having lactose intolerance, or sickle cell being found most commonly in sub-Saharan Africans and people descended from them and providing resistance to malaria as a side effect. Quite frankly, humans haven't been in societies long enough to affect evolution.

Society is more complex than just a group of social animals. It involves traditions, rituals, common beliefs, and the like--including common beliefs about gender and sexuality. These things are memes, in the original, Dawkin-esque sense of the word, not genes.

Evolution, however, doesn't care about gender or sexuality. Nor does it care about traditions, rituals, beliefs, or any other sort of meme. If something is in your DNA, then the only thing evolution "cares" about is whether or it will help you or prevent you from passing that DNA on. Since humans live in groups, neither homosexuality nor being transgender prevent DNA from being passed down, since even if you don't breed, someone related to you can, and the DNA is continued.

Yes, penetration=femininity is a Hellenistic philosophical ideal, evident in philosophical debates. However, we likewise know from the Hellenistic comedies that many men did indeed enjoy penetration. Avoiding penetration is something like "polite" and "civil", whereas male-male penetration is "wilderness". Both happen. Likewise we know about Hellenistic transgender, intersex, and other identities.
And socially speaking, how accepted were these men? Were they treated seriously and with respect? Or, because these are comedies you're talking about, were they designed to be laughed at?

I am less knowledgeable about Indigenous South Americans and Central Americans. But I am skeptical about that interpretation because of other traditions that I am aware of, as well as historical reports from European Christian missionaries.
You may want to look it up. They were something of an outlier, with other Central and South American groups being more open towards homosexuality. A quick source: LGBT history in Mexico - Wikipedia

Some cultures have thirdgender. Many cultures have two genders. The cultures that have thirdgender organize the understanding of it differently from each other.
Humans are good at organizing and putting labels on things. That's different from welcoming it with open arms.

It is accurate to emphasize how the achievement cis-hetero supremacy is recent and artificial.
And you're almost there.

In your fantasy societies, has there ever been a cishet supremacy? If not, then why are people in your worlds celebrating not being cis or het?

Or to put it a different way, in the real world, while cishet supremacy was the norm and homosexuality was merely whispered about by most people, were there ever straight pride parades or hetero-flags?

Some people like to say "hey, if there's a Black History Month, why isn't there also a White History Month," and they have to be reminded that every other month is White History Month. There doesn't have to be, because, sadly, white history is still the norm.

In a alternate Earth that never oppressed Black people, then there would be no need for a Black History Month because it would be normal to teach the history and achievements of Black Americans as often as white history and achievements are taught. (I admit I have no idea if any other countries celebrate Black History Month or an equivalent with a different oppressed minority.)

Likewise, in a world where LGBT+ people were never oppressed, then there would be no reason for a Pride Event because LGBT+ people were never made to feel ashamed.

Having a male body is different from having a female body, or an intersex body.

Consider, for many gay men, the male body of their partner is precisely what matters. For other gay men, it is the gender of their partner that is fundamental to ones attraction.

Each kind of body, each kind of gender, each kind of community is a reason to be proud of ones own identity.
None of this is an answer. Plus, in your second sentence, you could rewrite it as "for many straight men, the female body of their partner is precisely what matters. For other straight men, it is the gender of their partner that is fundamental to ones attraction" and it would be equally true and equally as much of a non-answer.

It comes across as somewhat homophobic or transphobic to claim that samesex couples or trans persons are unable to feel pride in who one oneself is.
Since I said nothing like that whatsoever, I have no idea what you mean. Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying, or are you just getting what I wrote, or did I write badly, or what?

Also, I think you need to understand the difference between "being proud of something" and "being Proud of something," in the LGBT+ Pride sense of the word. In both the real world and a fantasy world, of course people can be proud of their bodies. But without outside oppression, they would have no reason to be Proud. In a fantasy world that doesn't have a history of LBGT-phobia, they never had to hide themselves in shame or fear. Just like, in the real world, straight people have never had to hide their heterosexuality.

Patriotism is a near-universal example of human pride in ones own identity group. Pride is intrinsic to identity. It has little or no dependency on oppression.
A country is also an external sense of identity, as opposed to one's sexuality, which is internal. They are also very different things.
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Seems like this thread has stopped being about roleplaying. I'm heading for the exit.
Mod Note:

This observation sort of matches my own perception. We’re treading dangerously close to forbidden discussion topics.

Please, let’s all take a breather, then return to posting about RPGs.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Love is diverse.

The fey elf Revelry celebrates love. Pilgrims go there for different reasons.

Some go to start a new family. Some go to celebrate the family that they already have.

The Revelry is 15 days. It includes a womanly Mothers Day, a manly Fathers Day, and a nonbinary Parents Day. While all celebrate parenting, each does so from the perspective of their different identities. On these day, descendants likewise celebrate their ancestral parents who are still alive.

The Revelry includes people displaying their own identities. Those seeking a mate likewise communicate the identities of those who they seek. Likewise, those who already have mates, celebrate the identities of their own distinctive romances.

The Revelry is a celebration of the diversity of love.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
The fey elf setting draws from several inspirations. It continues a 4e setting. An important theme from the 4e setting is, the fey cultures are strictly magical. The feywild emphasizes magical power sources, namely psionic, primal, arcane, and divine. The fey divine is nontheistic but is heavy in healing, positivity, divination, fate, and luck. Only the material plane ("mortal", "natural") exhibits the martial power source. In this setting, any fey creature who has levels in a martial class, like Fighter or Rogue, has a backstory where they somehow learned these capabilities from the material plane.

Note, the sun elf and moon elf are fey, thus distinct from high elf and wood elf that are material.

The sun elf is Norsesque. The moon elf is Celtesque.



This post describes the Norsesque sun elf.

The sun elf comprises several cultures, because each governmental "court" has its own local culture. Even so, it is possible to talk about a composite culture, where most sun elf cultures share most of its features.

The real-life Viking-Period Norse culture is traditionally (ancestrally) a democratic local government. The local parliament is called a "Thing" (Þing), every adult − woman and man − votes as a member of this parliament. They vote for two community leaders, one "Jarl" and one "Law-sayer". The job of the Lawsayer is something like a supreme court, to remind everyone what the laws are. The job of the Jarl is like a US president, in charge of the day-to-day executive decisions, but most importantly, is the commander-in-chief in charge of the army. The government is much like the US government, where the Jarl is the president, the Lawsayer is the judicial, and every local citizen is congress. But the government is local, so the Jarl is more like a "mayor" in scope − but with a local army. The Jarl is typically a man because of the military duty, but there are women who are elected to be the Jarl. Essentially, the local Thing is within walking-distance of every voter.

The political description is somewhat complex. Toward the end of the Viking Period, there are a few regional Things, whose voters are representatives from various local Things. Moreover, by the centuries after the Viking Period, the Norse cultures shift into monarchies, but even then, the monarch is more like requiring an elected Jarl to come from a certain family. It is possible, to vote out an unpopular monarch, and vote in a sibling or cousin instead. During the Viking Period, there are aspiring monarchs, but their influence is more like a patchwork of alliances, making different arrangements with different regional and local Things. In any case, it is fair to characterize the traditional Thing as a local direct democracy, enjoying the participation of each nearby citizen. Politics tends to revolve around prominent families, and there can be intrigue and family feuds.

In the D&D setting, the politics of each sun elf "fey court" is like a local Thing. Every elf that is 100 years or older gets to vote on any issue. The voters typically vote as a block as a family. If a family gets annoyed with a particular court, they can leave that court and instead become members of a different court.

In the Norse culture, each family has its own militia. Typically, the culture expects the adult males of each family to fight as warriors to defend the family. (Family feuds are a thing!) Young girls and boys learn warfare together, such as wrestling and handling weapons. Adult females that prove capable in war can be members of a family militia. Even so, Norse masculine values come with a kind of military machismo. Men are expected to fight, and fighting is a mans world. Women who are good at fighting become members of a masculine gender-division of labor. The culture respects these female warriors for their masculine skills. Meanwhile, men who are less good at fighting might endure insults as a "coward" (ergi) or weakling, because of shirking the duty of a male to defend ones family. Nevertheless the culture still respects any men who excel at feminine skills, such as Norse shamanism. A Norse individual can choose ones own gender. The community will respect their respective accomplishments.

The job of a Jarl is delicate, because each family has its own warriors. No family trusts the safety of ones own family members to some other family. The Jarl must be an individual that each family trusts to keep the warriors of ones family safe. The need for every family to entrust this individual with their own warriors, is mainly why the democracy exists in the first place. Each voter needs to express confidence in this individual. In this way, the Jarl becomes responsible for heading the collective shared "army" of many families.

In the D&D setting, there is no "martial power source" from the feywild. By analogy, the fey elf "warriors" are strictly mages. Each family has powerful mages who defend the family. The sun court "songster" (a spell singer) is a Jarl, an elected official who each family requires to keep the mages of ones own family safe. The court is in charge of an army mages from many families: Psions, Bards, Clerics, also Druids, Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, and any other fullcasters. An army of Wizards is a terrifying power. And so on. In times of emergency, many fey courts join their armies together in common cause. Other races tend to avoid provoking the fey elves. Magic is the currency of "hard power" among the fey courts. Art is the "soft power".

In the real life Norse history, there is a kind of machismo. Courage is the ultimate masculine value. To be a warrior who fights "fair", hand to hand, face to face, is an expression of such courage. This machismo makes the feminine magic, called Seidhr (Seiðr), problematic for men. Seidhr is mind-magic, literally a magic that "plays with an others mind", causing delusions and illusions, even possessions. In D&D terms, the schools of enchantment and illusion approximate well enough the Norse Seidhr. Essentially, the mage projects ones own mind into someone elses mind to wreak havoc there. The machismo considers it "cowardly" to use this magic to assassinate an enemy from a distance, or to cause an enemy to be unable to defend oneself, or to cause an enemy to kill oneself or ally. The removal of courage is itself unmanly. This military machismo is a main reason why "men" dont do shamanism. Of course, "women" have no obligation to conform to this machismo − and have no problem magically assassinating from a distance. Norse men fear magical women, and likewise respect any men who know how to do these kinds of magic.

The Norse culture gender divides, but there is real fluidity for individuals to choose to be successful in the skills of the other gender.

Among the Norse, the magic gender-divides. The men do warrior magic, called Ljodh (ljóð), "songs". The machismo considers this kind of magic permissible, because it allows a warrior to continue fighting face-to-face. It is ok for magic to buff oneself, but it is "cowardly" for it to sabotage a foe. Generally, the warrior magic is physical and mental health, healing, reviving, resurrecting, protection, shielding, and abjuration like protection from elements, reversing harmful magic, and shutting out mental attacks.

Surprisingly, the D&D 5e Devotion Paladin is excellent for approximating the Norse masculine magic. Its focus on courageous face-to-face melee combat, its healing and abjuration spell list, its ethic of fighting "fair", even its Charisma of personal influence and social honor are all spot on. This kind of Paladin makes a "manly" oath that is specifically about courage in battle, while all of the Devotion features work well enough.

Note, all Norse magic is "psionic" sotospeak, the power of ones own mind. So all sun elf mages wield spells that have the psionic tag, and eschew any material component. The sun elf Paladin eschews a holy symbol, or any other material component. But the spells still have a verbal component that helps focus the intention of ones own mind, and also a verbal component can substitute a somatic component. Where feminine magic is typically spoken commands, the masculine magic is typically musical chants, often with few or no words.

As the Paladin is a sun elf mage, a sun elf can be a Paladin-flavor Cleric as a fullcaster version of a Paladin. These sun elf Clerics keep the Paladin oath of courage, and can use Charisma as the casting ability, instead of Wisdom. These Clerics have the psionic tag; their spells eschew a holy symbol or any other material component, but continue to utilize any verbal component, and a verbal can also substitute for any somatic. This kind of psionic Cleric, can be of the following domains: Life, Peace, Knowledge, or Light. Keep in mind the oath of courage.

Note, the Jarl of an elf court is called a "songster", Ljodhi (Ljóði). The songster is an individual who excels at warrior magic, and possibly other magics as well.

The D&D 5e Bard is spot-on for the feminine Norse shamanic magic. Its enchantment and illusion spells approximate mind-magic (seiðr). Its divination spells correspond to prescience (spá). Its teleportation magic relating to shamanic projections of mind-out-of-body, with animal shapeshift, correspond to "form travel" (hamfar). The sun elf Bard too has the psionic tag, whose spells eschew any focus, instrument, or other material component. But they maintain the verbal component, typically a forceful command, and can use a verbal component instead of a somatic one. In other words, the verbal component can count as both a verbal and a somatic if the spell requires both.

The D&D classes that best approximate Norse magic are masculine Paladin and feminine Bard. Plus Psion, because all Norse magic is the power of a mind. However, telekinesis is rare. Examples of it are more like projecting ones mind into an object to animate the object. Likewise, telekinetic flight is rare. There is a mention of elves hovering high above the clouds. But almost every example of Norse flight involves shapeshifting into a bird, such as swan, eagle, or falcon. The sun elf psionicists are mainly: prescience-clairvoyance-teleportation, shapeshift-healing, telepathy-enchantment-illusion.



This fantasy fey elf setting has a gender-dividing culture. Where Norse culture has two genders with some fluidity between them, the sun elf culture has three genders with some fluidity between them. These three genders go beyond choice of clothing and body language. The genders include culturally assigned labor, always magical. It is possible for a woman to be a great Paladin, but she is in a mans world. It is possible for a man to be a great Bard, but he is in a womans world. Likewise, a Psion is a nonbinarys world.

In sum:

• Feminine magic: Bard
• Genderqueer magic: Psion (reflavor a Warlock)
• Masculine magic: Paladin (or Paladin-like Cleric)

The sun elf court cultures revolve around these gender expectations and the prestigious kind of magic of each.



A personal note. Of course, as a DM, I need to become any gender and every gender that an adventure story requires. As a player, my own characters tend to be masculine men. If I play a Norse Psion, he will probably be an other masculine character. Even if, the trainers and contacts will be Psions who are typically genderqueer. The situation can be fun. It can also be fun to explore a genderqueer player character. The good news is, if one becomes a powerful Psion, other people will respect it, and appreciate it.
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
Heh, the previous post might be a "too long, didnt read". It basically touches on how the fey elf "court" cultures work.

The Norsesque ones are mainly direct democracies, with family members tending to vote as a block. The elven age of "adulthood" at age 100 is when they legally gain the right to vote in a court. Importantly, each extended family has its own army, a family militia. In the context of the fey elves, this army is strictly an army of mages. Normally, there is no martial power source among the fey elves. The army defines the culturally organized masculine values.

For the sun elves:

woman: Bard (Enchanter, Illusionist, also Shapeshifter-Healer, Teleporter-Divination; and the only official religious leader is a Bard, as a Seer)

nonbinary: Psion (reflavored Warlock; but also an Artificer, flavoring as imbuing ones own mind into objects)

man: Paladin (Devotion, but with an oath of "courage"; by extension a Paladin-like Cleric of Peace, Life, Knoweldege, or Light)

All sun elf magic traditions gain the psionic tag: eschew material components, but keep the verbal component, which can also replace the somatic component.
 
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