Creatures with DR versus Magical Weapons

[James McMurray]

Yep. Of course, you'd better be very strong, since you have to get past the adamantium's 20 hardness.

 

[dkilgo]

Now, I do have a question.

What happens to your weapon when you sunder someone's weapon?

Wouldn't you think that your weapon would be damaged too?

Now, I am just taking non-magical weapons into account here. What made me think of this was the steel sword sundering the adamantite sword.

 

[kreynolds]

Nowhere does it say that the weapon doing the sundering requires a magic enhancement bonus.

Good point. However, you'll note that very same passage states that for each +1 enhancement bonus, the weapon or shield adds +1 to its hardness and hit points. Adamantine does not receive this increase because it does not have an enhancement bonus, which is clearly evident by the fact that it can't overcome DR. The DR writeup in the DMG also does not state that a weapon must be magical. It says usually, and even though adamantine has a natural enhancement bonus, it doesn't work. Personally, I think the intent is that you can't sunder with adamantine because it does not possess an enhancement bonus in the context of either DR or even striking a weapon.

 

[Caliban]

Good point. However, you'll note that very same passage states that for each +1 enhancement bonus, the weapon or shield adds +1 to its hardness and hit points. Adamantine does not receive this increase because it does not have an enhancement bonus,

Adamantite does indeed have an enhancement bonus. It's a natural enhancement bonus, and it does get the +1 to hardness and hit points (or more depending on weapon size), on top of the normal hardness and hit points of adamantite.

Adamantite just doesn't have a magical enhancement bonus, which is what is required to bypass DR, as clarified by the Sage and the MM2.

which is clearly evident by the fact that it can't overcome DR. The DR writeup in the DMG also does not state that a weapon must be magical. It says usually, and even though adamantine has a natural enhancement bonus, it doesn't work. Personally, I think the intent is that you can't sunder with adamantine because it does not possess an enhancement bonus in the context of either DR or even striking a weapon.

It does not possess a magical enhancement bonus, which is what is required for bypassing DR. It does posses an enhancement bonus, which certainly qualifies it in the context of striking a weapon. Just ask Monte Cooke, since you don't believe the Sage on this one.

 

[dkilgo]

Good point. However, you'll note that very same passage states that for each +1 enhancement bonus, the weapon or shield adds +1 to its hardness and hit points. Adamantine does not receive this increase because it does not have an enhancement bonus, which is clearly evident by the fact that it can't overcome DR. The DR writeup in the DMG also does not state that a weapon must be magical. It says usually, and even though adamantine has a natural enhancement bonus, it doesn't work. Personally, I think the intent is that you can't sunder with adamantine because it does not possess an enhancement bonus in the context of either DR or even striking a weapon.

Is it that it just would not work for you, or is it something else? Adamantine does in fact have an enhancement bomus that scales withthe size of the weapon. If I remember that right...

So, why wouldn't an adamantine sword with a natural enhancement bonus of +1 not be able to sunder a +1 magical weapon? For that matter, why wouldn't bypass DR? DR is natural and represents how some creatures have the physical fortitude to suck up to the blow. Magical creatures I would have to say are dependant upon a totally different arguement,which I have not thought through enough to state right now.

Also, in a world where magic is prevelent, magic itself is natural. Whether we want to be otherwise, or not, is completely up to you, but it really is a natural aspect of that realm.

 

[kreynolds]

What happens to your weapon when you sunder someone's weapon?

Nothing.

 

[dkilgo]

Nothing.

And, why not? And, please don't say that the rules don't cover that issue because I already know that they don't. I was just wondering why they don't.

 

[kreynolds]

..and it does get the +1 to hardness and hit points (or more depending on weapon size), on top of the normal hardness and hit points of adamantite.

Where does it state this? You can't really apply all the rules for an enhancement bonus to a natural enhancement bonus when they aren't the same.

Adamantite just doesn't have a magical enhancement bonus, which is what is required to bypass DR, as clarified by the Sage and the MM2.

Right. So we know that adamantine does not possess a true enhancement bonus, and for one reason (possibly two):

1) It does not bypass DR.
2) It does not receive the increase in hardness and hit points.

It does posses an enhancement bonus, which certainly qualifies it in the context of striking a weapon.

I still disagree. I think the context of an enhancement bonus in Strike a Weapon is referring to a magical enhancmenent bonus, as it specifically refers to weapons with an enhancment bonus receiving +1 to their hardness and hit points, and I am not aware of anything stating that adamantine receives such a bonus. To simply say that it is enough of an enhancement bonus to count doesn't cut it, as that is the same argument that was put forth by many here for explaining why an adamantine weapon bypasses DR, and it was incorrect. The argument was based on "Well, the word 'enhancement' is in there, and that's enough", only it's not enough.

A natural enhancement bonus and a magical enhancement bonus are not the same. Granted, it took the release of the MMII to further explain what had been stated in many Sage replys, that the natural enhancement bonus on adamantine is not treated identically to a magical enhancement bonus. I think applying the bonus to hardness and hit points, without it being stated that it should receive it, is the same folly that many made before.

That's just my opinion though.

Just ask Monte Cooke, since you don't believe the Sage on this one.

I'm sure he'd say the same thing, but Monte and I rarely agree on anything. He tends to make rash rulings just like I do.

 

[kreynolds]

Is it that it just would not work for you, or is it something else?

Huh?

Adamantine does in fact have an enhancement bomus that scales withthe size of the weapon.

Yes, but it is not identical to a magical enhancement bonus. Many assume it is.

So, why wouldn't an adamantine sword with a natural enhancement bonus of +1 not be able to sunder a +1 magical weapon?

Because it doesn't possess an enhancement bonus. It has a natural enhancement bonus, which is not the same thing at all.

For that matter, why wouldn't bypass DR?

Because it doesn't possess a magical enhancement bonus.

DR is natural and represents how some creatures have the physical fortitude to suck up to the blow.

Actually, no. DR is supernatural and goes away in an Antimagic Field.

Magical creatures I would have to say are dependant upon a totally different arguement,which I have not thought through enough to state right now.

You don't have to be a magical creature. DR is magical.

Also, in a world where magic is prevelent, magic itself is natural. Whether we want to be otherwise, or not, is completely up to you, but it really is a natural aspect of that realm.

Natural in regards to "way of life", maybe, but this has no bearing on the rules.

 

[kreynolds]

And, why not?

Because it is not stated in the rules.

And, please don't say that the rules don't cover that issue because I already know that they don't.

I didn't.

I was just wondering why they don't.

Primarily because if you begin to track weapon wear and tear due to striking other weapons, it is only logical to do so on a general basis. Then you have to start tracking wear and tear on everything, from your helm to your shoes, and its more work than its worth.