Crit hit with stored spell in wpn

[Ffaelfarrin]

Hey folks.

Yesterday i wondered if spells stored in a "Weapon of Spell Storing" also land a critical hit when the weapon does.

So, assume your Gish has a longsword of Spell Storing and casts a scorching ray in it.
In combat against the BBEG he lands a crit hit with the rolls 20 / 19.

Now, the weapon damage looks like this 1D8 + Str + Enh
The crit damage looks like this 2D8 +2*(Str+Enh)

Lets assume our Gish also triggers the spell stored in the weapon on this hit. This would do an additional 4D6 fire damage.

But: Since he landed a critical hit with the weapon and the spell is triggered as if it was cast on the opponent an hit by itself - does it also get double damage (8d6) from the initial attack roll of 20?

Basic damage: 1d8+Str+Enh + 4d6(fire)
Critical damage: 1d8+2*(Str+Enh) + 8d6

Is this right?

Thinking one step further:
Lets assume our gish has a high enough level to cast a scorching ray with 2 rays and casts this into his weapon. Again he lands a hit against the BBEG and chooses to trigger the spell.
Since the spell "hits" along with the weapon and no seperate attack roll is needed to check whether the rays hit, I assume a roll of twenty makes BOTH rays crit hit for a total of 2*8d6 = 16d6 (+ weapon dmg, str and enh, ofc).

Again, is ths right?

Thanks for your help

 

[Jack Simth]

Hard to say. I don't think it's directly addressed in the rules-as-written, which pretty much means it's a call from the specific DM in question - ask him. I can see a couple of different ways an individual DM might go (if they choose to give reasoning):
1) A Spell Storing weapon simply re-casts the spell - you'll need a separate attack and damage roll for each ray from Scorching Ray (which would be a "no", as you'll need a second set of rolls, which crit individually).
2) The effect of a spell-storing weapon doesn't require an additional attack roll, it just automatically targets whoever got hit by the weapon - treating the spell as a targeted spell, so no crits from that at all (which would be a no).
3) The effect of a spell-storing weapon is part of the weapon itself, and gets treated as extra dice of damage, such as with the Flaming Property, so doesn't crit.
4) The effect of a spell-storing weapon is part of the weapon itself, and gets treated as part of the base weapon damage, and so crits.


Short Answer? Not clearly specified in RAW, check with your DM.

 

[Runestar]

The spell damage would not get multiplied. An attack only benefits from a crit if there is an attack roll involved. The extra damage here is effectively rider-on damage that remains constant regardless of whether you crit or not.

Contrast the 2.

1) You attack a foe with shocking grasp. You crit on a 20 for double the electricity damage.

2) You attack the foe with a +1 spell-storing(shocking grasp) falchion and crit. The shocking grasp damage is dealt automatically, but not multiplied, since no attack was made for it. It is auto-hit by virtue of your original attack hitting.

1) A Spell Storing weapon simply re-casts the spell - you'll need a separate attack and damage roll for each ray from Scorching Ray (which would be a "no", as you'll need a second set of rolls, which crit individually).

Note that scorching ray is not a valid choice for a spell storing weapon. Spell storing allows for only targeted spells (which in game terms, is any spell with a "target:" in its entry. Scorching ray lacks this part.

 

[Ffaelfarrin]

[...]The shocking grasp damage is dealt automatically, but not multiplied, since no attack was made for it. It is auto-hit by virtue of your original attack hitting.[...]

That's exactly the core of the question.

Paraphrased: Does the weapon attack roll ALSO automatically count for the spell attack roll?

As written in the description of the weapon ability "Spell Storing" one can choose to re-cast the spell on hit. I understand this as a complete recast of the spell, along with an attack roll for it. In this case, the attack roll for the spell stored is obsolete, since the casting takes place in the moment when the weapon strikes its victim and is (in case of any touch spell) in physical contact. Does the lacking necessity to make an attack roll to see if the spell hits also prevent the spell from crit-ing (or: also prevent the necessity to see HOW the spell hits?)??

Note that scorching ray is not a valid choice for a spell storing weapon. Spell storing allows for only targeted spells (which in game terms, is any spell with a "target:" in its entry. Scorching ray lacks this part.

Thanks for pointing this out. I totally missed that

But this raises another question:

[...]treating the spell as a targeted spell, so no crits from that at all

This does NOT mean, that targeted spells can't crit, does it? Do I get this right?

Else this would mean that i cant crit with a spell stored in a weapon in any way.
Only targeted spells allowd => cant crit.
Spells that can crit => not targeted (or they deal no damage which gets multiplied)

 

[Runestar]

This does NOT mean, that targeted spells can't crit, does it? Do I get this right?

Whether a spell is targeted or not is irrelevant towards determining if it can crit. You can crit with a scorching ray (not a targeted spell), because it requires an attack roll. Conversely, a fireball can never crit since there is no attack roll involved.

Does the lacking necessity to make an attack roll to see if the spell hits also prevent the spell from crit-ing (or: also prevent the necessity to see HOW the spell hits?)??

Effectively yes. Sr and saves would still apply though.

I also recall this being discussed in either the FAQ or ask wizards column (it mentioned how the eldritch blast damage from hideous blow was not multiplied on a crit as it was effectively rider-on damage (ie: not considered part of the base weapon damage).

 

[Ffaelfarrin]

I also recall this being discussed in either the FAQ or ask wizards column (it mentioned how the eldritch blast damage from hideous blow was not multiplied on a crit as it was effectively rider-on damage (ie: not considered part of the base weapon damage).

Found that. Thanks for the reference. And thanks for the help, too

 

[frankthedm]

Hey folks.

Yesterday i wondered if spells stored in a "Weapon of Spell Storing" also land a critical hit when the weapon does. So, assume your Gish has a longsword of Spell Storing and casts a scorching ray in it.

You could not use scorching ray with a weapon of spell storing.

Spell Storing
A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon.

 

[Ffaelfarrin]

Note that scorching ray is not a valid choice for a spell storing weapon. Spell storing allows for only targeted spells (which in game terms, is any spell with a "target:" in its entry. Scorching ray lacks this part.

Thanks for pointing this out. I totally missed that

Thanks for pointing that out again.
I'll go with Combust from the SC. That spell shoul be valid and does work even better (in the short run)

 

[Sharkon]

You can crit with a scorching ray (not a targeted spell), because it requires an attack roll. Conversely, a fireball can never crit since there is no attack roll involved.




I think i agree with you but i think in the PH says that a square has an AC of 5 so i would like to ask if you really need an attack roll for the square that you cast the fireball (there is no chance of crit in the fireball as you say of course) Am i wrong ?

 

[Ydars]

This is one I had come up when I was playing.

I was a Rogue8/Wiz3 with practised spellcaster to make my shocking grasp deal 5d6. I routinely used a spell-storing rapier to deliver the spell. The DM always ruled that if the rapier critted, then the spell did as well for this reason:

we only rolled one attack roll, even though shocking grasp normally attacks TOUCH AC and normally gets +3 to the roll versus opponents wearing metal. Yet we do not include these bonuses to hit when resolving the attack because both are resolved by a single roll

So using it as a spell in a rapier makes it HARDER to hit opponents with shocking grasp. This therefore also makes it harder to confirm a critical with the spell.

Also, from a purely simulationist point of view, if you stab someone in a vital organ (crit) then the spell discharges, it will do alot more damage (also crit).

The only fair alternative (IMHO) is to make ONE attack roll but resolve it twice:

1) versus touch AC with a +3 attack for the spell if the opponent is wearing metal armour, since you only have to touch someone with the rapier to discharge the spell (in fact the +3 suggests you only have to brush near the armour to discharge via something like an arc).

2) look at the same roll versus normal AC and resolve the physical part of the attack that way.

I would not like to roll twice because both attacks are part of one action and so this does not simulate reality well.