Critical hit with a Maximized scorching ray: how much
- Thread starter Sammael
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Bront
The man with the probe
Depends on how you do criticals, but there are 3 paths.
1) 4d6 x 2 from a crit means exactly that (Results of 4d6, multiplied by). Gives you a wider variety of numbers in general than method 2, and in this case, the result is 24 x 2 = 48.
2) 4d6 x 2 from a crit means 4d6 + 4d6, or 8d6. This method tends to drift toward a more average result since you have more dice. Since the spell is maximized, all the dice are maximized, so the result is 48.
3) 4d6 x 2 from a crit means 4d6 + 4d6. Since the spell is maximized, the normal 4d6 are maximized, but the critical dice are not, so the result is 24 + 4d6.
Now, personaly, I think either 1 or 2 are valid options (I've played with both ways of dealing with crits), and I think 3 does not work, because you're saying that maximize isn't effecting all the dice. The crit chance is part of the benifit of a spell that requires a to hit, so any metamagic that effects damage should effect the crit as well.
1) 4d6 x 2 from a crit means exactly that (Results of 4d6, multiplied by). Gives you a wider variety of numbers in general than method 2, and in this case, the result is 24 x 2 = 48.
2) 4d6 x 2 from a crit means 4d6 + 4d6, or 8d6. This method tends to drift toward a more average result since you have more dice. Since the spell is maximized, all the dice are maximized, so the result is 48.
3) 4d6 x 2 from a crit means 4d6 + 4d6. Since the spell is maximized, the normal 4d6 are maximized, but the critical dice are not, so the result is 24 + 4d6.
Now, personaly, I think either 1 or 2 are valid options (I've played with both ways of dealing with crits), and I think 3 does not work, because you're saying that maximize isn't effecting all the dice. The crit chance is part of the benifit of a spell that requires a to hit, so any metamagic that effects damage should effect the crit as well.
Jondor_Battlehammer
First Post
For your paticular situation, the closest examples I can think of are,
A) When a maximized spell is also empowered, the damage is max + 1/2 normal rolled damage.
B) With the weapon master PrC, they can max damage any normal hit, but roll crits just like anyone else.
Not much for presedence, but I think 24 + 4D6 is the way to go. Nothing in 3.x lets you multiply a multiplier, but the maximize should affect the base spell.
"Now, personaly, I think either 1 or 2 are valid options (I've played with both ways of dealing with crits), and I think 3 does not work, because you're saying that maximize isn't effecting all the dice. The crit chance is part of the benifit of a spell that requires a to hit, so any metamagic that effects damage should effect the crit as well"
The only problem is is that options 1 & 2 are not how crits work in ANY situation, and 3 is closest to the way they are handled RAW. If they worked the above way, a maxed empowered fireball would do 90 points, not 60 + 10D6/2. Maximize does not effect all the dice all the time.
It is something that should have been adressed after five years of this possability floating around, but there is always a hole to be found.
A) When a maximized spell is also empowered, the damage is max + 1/2 normal rolled damage.
B) With the weapon master PrC, they can max damage any normal hit, but roll crits just like anyone else.
Not much for presedence, but I think 24 + 4D6 is the way to go. Nothing in 3.x lets you multiply a multiplier, but the maximize should affect the base spell.
"Now, personaly, I think either 1 or 2 are valid options (I've played with both ways of dealing with crits), and I think 3 does not work, because you're saying that maximize isn't effecting all the dice. The crit chance is part of the benifit of a spell that requires a to hit, so any metamagic that effects damage should effect the crit as well"
The only problem is is that options 1 & 2 are not how crits work in ANY situation, and 3 is closest to the way they are handled RAW. If they worked the above way, a maxed empowered fireball would do 90 points, not 60 + 10D6/2. Maximize does not effect all the dice all the time.
It is something that should have been adressed after five years of this possability floating around, but there is always a hole to be found.
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Thanee is correct (as usual). The point with the dice is that, unlike a magic weapon's "bonus dice" issues with criticals, there are no "bonus dice" with a Scorching Ray. The maximize grants you 24 hit points, and doubling that gives you 48. If the spell weren't maximized, then you'd roll 8d6 on a critical.
Dave
Dave
Infiniti2000
First Post
This is not a valid path, actually. The rules are clear that you do not actually do multiplication. You specific roll all dice and add them up.Bront said:
This is the correct ruling.Bront said:
There's no separation on 'critical dice' as far as maximize is concerned. It might be reasonable houserule, though, given the wording for empower, but I have yet to have anyone ever take maximize spell, so I can't offer an opinion on that.Bront said:
Lobo Lurker
First Post
Personally, I don't care what the rules say. I'm the DM so I'd go with. 24 x 2 = 48.
'nuff said.
'nuff said.
Although the Weapon Master and Empower Spell examples are valid reasoning, keep in mind also that the descriptions SPECIFICALLY say the extra damage is still rolled and not capped out. The fact that Maximize Spell mentions nothing about critical hits, along with the fact that the description does say to maximize ALL numeric factors (except for the one it specifically says not to, Empower Spell) tells me that it should be 48.
This isn't very clear, but it appears to be the case.
This isn't very clear, but it appears to be the case.
My argument would be: this spell is not Scorching Ray, with Maximize and a critical hit. It's a critical hit on 'Maximized Scorching Ray', a 5th level spell whose effect is '1 to 3 rays, each dealing 24 points of fire damage'.
There is no random component in 'Maximized Scorching Ray', just a numeric amount, and flat numeric amounts are multiplied in a critical hit.
There is no random component in 'Maximized Scorching Ray', just a numeric amount, and flat numeric amounts are multiplied in a critical hit.
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