Crits vs. Undead, Constructs, etc. `

[Cedric]

So, I'm preparing to run a game right now, I've decided that I'm going to (sort of) allow crits vs. Undead, Constructs, Oozes, etc.

What I'm going to do is on a successful crit, allow max damage. (So if you normally do 1d6+2 damage with an attack...on a crit against an undead, you would do 8 pts of damage).

I was also thinking about allowing a form of this for Rogue's and Sneak Attack. So basically, for every die of Sneak Attack Damage they normally would be doing, they do an extra point of damage.

So a rogue flanks an undead, the rogue normally does 1d6+2 (+2d6 sneak attack damage)...the rogue would do 1d6+2 (+2 pts sneak attack damage).

Thoughts? Would this be too unbalancing at higher levels?

 

[trav_laney]

So, I'm preparing to run a game right now, I've decided that I'm going to (sort of) allow crits vs. Undead, Constructs, Oozes, etc.

Thoughts? Would this be too unbalancing at higher levels?

I would hesitate to make it an across-the-board rule. There is a reason that some monsters are immune to critical hits, and most often it is game balance.

I would make it an option instead of a rule. Maybe use a feat, a prestige class, or even a particular magic item. This gives the players the option of using the new rule or not, and makes their characters a little more customizable.

Here's my idea:

Bane of Undead [General]
You know how to hit undead monsters where it hurts.
Prerequisite: Base attack +4
Benefit: Undead are subject to critical hits from your melee attacks.

Then you could create Bane of Elementals, Bane of Constructs, Bane of Oozes, and so forth from this idea. I wouldn't make it available to characters less than 6th level, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to tack on other prerequisites as well (such as Favored Enemy).

Sword of Purity: this jeweled longsword is forged from elven steel and is decorated with religious symbols. It functions as a holy longsword +1. Furthermore, all undead are subject to critical hits and massive damage from its blows. (Market Price: 16,315 gp)

Then you could create specific weapons designed to target other creatures. For the anti-undead item, I used a longsword, since it is the quintessential Paladin weapon. An anti-golem weapon might be a heavy pick, and an anti-ooze weapon might be a greatclub. Whatever you are in the mood for. At any rate, I would make the ability to critically hit a monster who is normally not subject to be at least a +2 bonus.

There is also a prestige class out there that allows a rogue to sneak attack the undead. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I thought it was a pretty cool idea. Maybe you could use that class as a base for a prestige class of your own, that allows a character to critically hit golems, elementals, and oozes.

My two cents, anyway.

 

[Narsil]

I split undead into two different types; Magically Animated Corpses and Intelligent Undead.

Intelligent Undead covers your basic liches, vampires, etc. They are vulnerable to critical hits (particularly vampires; I give a critical hit with a piercing weapon another chance to roll critical and impale the heart) since they are still, in at least some sense, alive.

Magically Animated Corpses such as skeletons, zombies and ghouls are immune to critical hits as they are not intelligent and are merely being animated by magic. The same counts for magically animated constructs, but mechanical constructs which are merely operated by magic rather than animated by it have a capacity for suffering critical hits. (Knocking out a specific gear or switch, etc.)

 

[Rhun]

Keep in mind that undead and constructs do not get a CON bonus to hit points, so making them vulnerable to critical hits makes them weaker.

 

[Stalker0]

I think your SA rule is fine. A 9th level rogue is going to do 5 more damage with sneak attack, and considering that many constructs and undead already have damage reduction by those levels I see nothing wrong with it.

 

[Narsil]

Keep in mind that undead and constructs do not get a CON bonus to hit points, so making them vulnerable to critical hits makes them weaker.

I'm thinking about changing that rule in my games. Constitution is physical resistance; if anything a construct or an undead should get *more* Constitution due to a greater amount of physical tolerance towards things that'll hurt somebody.

 

[Cedric]

I would hesitate to make it an across-the-board rule. There is a reason that some monsters are immune to critical hits, and most often it is game balance.

I would make it an option instead of a rule. Maybe use a feat, a prestige class, or even a particular magic item. This gives the players the option of using the new rule or not, and makes their characters a little more customizable.

Here's my idea:

Bane of Undead [General]
You know how to hit undead monsters where it hurts.
Prerequisite: Base attack +4
Benefit: Undead are subject to critical hits from your melee attacks.

Then you could create Bane of Elementals, Bane of Constructs, Bane of Oozes, and so forth from this idea. I wouldn't make it available to characters less than 6th level, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to tack on other prerequisites as well (such as Favored Enemy).

Sword of Purity: this jeweled longsword is forged from elven steel and is decorated with religious symbols. It functions as a holy longsword +1. Furthermore, all undead are subject to critical hits and massive damage from its blows. (Market Price: 16,315 gp)

Then you could create specific weapons designed to target other creatures. For the anti-undead item, I used a longsword, since it is the quintessential Paladin weapon. An anti-golem weapon might be a heavy pick, and an anti-ooze weapon might be a greatclub. Whatever you are in the mood for. At any rate, I would make the ability to critically hit a monster who is normally not subject to be at least a +2 bonus.

There is also a prestige class out there that allows a rogue to sneak attack the undead. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I thought it was a pretty cool idea. Maybe you could use that class as a base for a prestige class of your own, that allows a character to critically hit golems, elementals, and oozes.

My two cents, anyway.

If I were going to allow full critical hits, then I agree with you. However, since I'm just allowing a crit to do max damage...well, you could roll max damage even without a crit, so it's not like you are doing "extra".

I think requiring a feat to do max damage against undead on a "crit" would be a very weak feat, unless it was part of a chain that lead something more worthwhile...or...you just took every feat you could find to buff yourself against undead.

Cedric

 

[Cedric]

I think your SA rule is fine. A 9th level rogue is going to do 5 more damage with sneak attack, and considering that many constructs and undead already have damage reduction by those levels I see nothing wrong with it.

Yes, I feel the pain of the dual wielding rogue when you don't have the "right" weapon to take on something immune to SA damage with DR of 10. The rogue is going to "maybe" do 1-4 points here and there, with many shots doing no damage at all.

 

[Matt Black]

So, I'm preparing to run a game right now, I've decided that I'm going to (sort of) allow crits vs. Undead, Constructs, Oozes, etc.

What I'm going to do is on a successful crit, allow max damage. (So if you normally do 1d6+2 damage with an attack...on a crit against an undead, you would do 8 pts of damage).

I was also thinking about allowing a form of this for Rogue's and Sneak Attack. So basically, for every die of Sneak Attack Damage they normally would be doing, they do an extra point of damage.

So a rogue flanks an undead, the rogue normally does 1d6+2 (+2d6 sneak attack damage)...the rogue would do 1d6+2 (+2 pts sneak attack damage).

Thoughts? Would this be too unbalancing at higher levels?

I like it. We just introduced exactly the same rule for critical hits. It's hardly overpowering, but it does keep some of the fun in critical hits. Without it, I find combats against crit-immune creatures really boring. One thing to consider: this variant makes weapons with large crit ranges better than those with large crit multipliers. Our solution was to only allow critical threats on crit-immune creatures with a natural 20. Another solution is to grant an addition +1 or +2 damage (on top of maximum weapon damage) per critical multiplier above x2.

We haven't introduced your sneak attack rule yet, but it seems like a good idea.

Unless it has "no discernable anatomy", then every monster has some sort of weak spot - even if it's just the joints and supporting structure that allow the thing to stand upright and move.

 

[Cedric]

I like it. We just introduced exactly the same rule for critical hits. It's hardly overpowering, but it does keep some of the fun in critical hits. Without it, I find combats against crit-immune creatures really boring. One thing to consider: this variant makes weapons with large crit ranges better than those with large crit multipliers. Our solution was to only allow critical threats on crit-immune creatures with a natural 20. Another solution is to grant an addition +1 or +2 damage (on top of maximum weapon damage) per critical multiplier above x2.

We haven't introduced your sneak attack rule yet, but it seems like a good idea.

Unless it has "no discernable anatomy", then every monster has some sort of weak spot - even if it's just the joints and supporting structure that allow the thing to stand upright and move.

Good thoughts, thank you. I hadn't considered the advantage this gave weapons with a high crit range. I might either use what you used (nat 20 only), or come up with something similar to account for that.