Crossbows and why the rules shortchange them.

[TheGemini]

A bow can be a more powerful weapon than a crossbow due to its size, etc. It's appropriate for DnD to provide Composite Bows with strength bonuses, etc. And bows are faster to load, as the rules allow. I don't have much of a problem with them.

But a crossbow is quite simply an improvement over a bow for ease of use. Once loaded, it's much harder to mess up. The bolt is snug in its little home awaiting ejection. But this ease of use is not properly accounted for. In a way, its very design is like a masterwork bow. It limits the wandering around the typical arrow would do while resting on a bow.

The point: A relatively untrained person can use a crossbow more effectively than they can a bow. That's partly why the darn things were invented!

Therefore, what about giving a crossbow an automatic +2 masterwork bonus to attack, and a masterwork crossbow gets a +3 bonus?

I think it more properly represents the strength of the platform while not really taking anything away from the bow. You're only likely to get 1 shot per combat with the crossbow -- might as well count for something!

 

[maddman75]

Or they could make crossbows simple weapons, while bows are martial weapons. That way only trained warriors have access to the bow, while pretty much anyone could use a crossbow.

Oh wait, that's what they did! And crossbows were not uberweapons, a Welsh Longbowman was one of the most fierce opponents on the medieval battlefield. But they took a lifetime to train, while you could conscript some farmers and hand them a crossbow and have a reasonably effective soldier.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I was just going to say that the primary benefit of x-bows was their ease of use and trainability. But does D&D account for this? Yup. Problem solved.

Now, x-bows still may not be all that attractive to warriors who get martial training but heh, everything doesn't need to be equal. Some weapons are more equal than others. Just make sure to get a crossbow of speed or rapid reloading or such...

 

[Coredump]

Or they could make crossbows simple weapons, while bows are martial weapons. That way only trained warriors have access to the bow, while pretty much anyone could use a crossbow.

Oh wait, that's what they did! And crossbows were not uberweapons, a Welsh Longbowman was one of the most fierce opponents on the medieval battlefield. But they took a lifetime to train, while you could conscript some farmers and hand them a crossbow and have a reasonably effective soldier.

"lifetime"... to simulate this, they should have made it an exotic weapon. (at least the longbow) but that would not have been as much fun.

 

[pete]

Crossbows also had an advantage in penetration. I have considered making them a ranged touch attack weapon to account for this.

 

[Thanee]

Actually a longbow has about the same penetration as a crossbow. Punches right through medieval plate armor.

A touch attack would be a bit much, however. In another game, these weapons ignore part of the protection armor grants, like half of its base (non-enhanced) armor bonus, which would sound about right, but doesn't fit all too well into the D&D system.

And yes, the simple versus martial weapon proficiency is a nice way to show the difference between the two. The crossbow being much easier to use and the longbow being the more effective weapon, if you are properly trained with it.

I think the damage of the crossbow is too low, tho, it should be more like 2d6 for the light one and 4d6 for the heavy version. There's quite some power behind those little bolts, and there must be a reason you cannot normally pull back the string without a lever or winch.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

Well, high quality medieval plate armour can easily deflect Xbow bolts or longbow arrows even at surprisingly short distances, you gotta be lucky to hit in a penetrating way... but that's not the point

I think the crossbow rules are fine... it's more the typical hitpoint problem of D&D. And nearly all other weaponstyles offer possibilities how to increase the weapon damage. For bows, they even invented these silly mighty composite rules. All other weapons allow several attacks. Only crossbows are screwed nearly in both regards.

Edit: Thanee, I would prefer 1d20 for heavy and 2d8 for light crossbows as well as longer reloading times for both.

 

[Li Shenron]

Therefore, what about giving a crossbow an automatic +2 masterwork bonus to attack, and a masterwork crossbow gets a +3 bonus?

Well, first of all there's the heavy crossbow which deals more damage than core bows (I think A&EG had greatbow and great crossbow, and again the largest crossbow was the damage winner, but I'm not sure).

The Str bonus applicable to composite bows is an advantage for strong characters, and a DISADVANTAGE for weak characters. Remember that if you DON'T have a Str bonus as high as the composite bow, you get -2, so you better NOT use a bow beyond your strength. In any case if you have a Str penalty you apply the penalty to bow damage.
That said, the average PC has a Str bonus, but many PC (and the average people) don't. That makes bows more common than crossbows for the PC but not for the rest of the world...

Another thing is that crossbows have a better range. Not much, but on the very long distance this turns out to be a +2 to attack or better.

Finally, there are a couple of very minor bonuses for crossbows: firing from prone and shooting with one hand (with penalties). They probably happen very rarely however.

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A final word about differences in critical hits...

IMO a critical of 19-20/x2 (crossbows) is very slightly more advantageous for very good ranged combatants, because they hit more often. Otherwise, a critical of 20/x3 is more advantageous for bad ranged combatants, which would however hit on a natural 20. This is going to make a difference one in a thousands times probably

 

[Darklone]

A big big drawback of most larger crossbows of any source: They usually cost an Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

 

[Gregor]

I was thinking of using the same +X Str bonus to damage for crossbows as already exists for regular bows. Essentially, it would just be a larger crossbow with a stronger pull. The only difference would be that you would HAVE to have the str modifier to load the crossbow.

Would help with the damage output, might make x bows more attractive and still wouldent steal the limelight from the longbow.

ideas?