D&D 4.0 - What the?

[Wulf Ratbane]

I have recently read that there is a question as to whether rogues are even required in adventuring parties anymore. Perhaps they can be tweaked to fill the non-armored swashbuckling fighter type role in some way? Sort of like make them more effective in melee with light weapons, but tone down their sneak attacks?

Interesting... Sneak attack is the saving grace of the rogue-- the one feature that no other class can mimic. Skill points, uncanny dodge, evasion, stealth, finding traps, all of these show up in other classes/spells/feats/magic items. Everything but sneak attack.

And you want to "tweak" the rogue by taking that away?

Anyone who feels that the rogue is no longer needed is clearly not making very effective use of sneak attack.

Until they invent a Wand of Instant Death with a whooooole lotta charges, I'd rather have a high level rogue around.

Wulf

 

[Larcen]

Harvest the WotC boards for ideas? Now thats a good idea

NOT!

While I think that 3.5e wasn't in all ways what people wanted (or what I wanted, since I didn't buy it), I still wouldn't consider WotC boards as a representative of the majority of D&D players. Or the whole on-line D&D community.

But wouldn't you agree it's a start? It would be one way for US to get at THEM before they print IT. See? Note also that I suggested they monitor the gaming cummunity at large and if they MUST, only their own boards. But yeah, I agree with you, that would not be my first choice to find rules "experts".

Bottom line is that if Lucas had known about the uproar midichlorians caused, he MIGHT have dropped them from the script.

 

[Larcen]

Interesting... Sneak attack is the saving grace of the rogue-- the one feature that no other class can mimic. Skill points, uncanny dodge, evasion, stealth, finding traps, all of these show up in other classes/spells/feats/magic items. Everything but sneak attack.

And you want to "tweak" the rogue by taking that away?

Anyone who feels that the rogue is no longer needed is clearly not making very effective use of sneak attack.

Until they invent a Wand of Instant Death with a whooooole lotta charges, I'd rather have a high level rogue around.

Wulf

"tone down" <> "take away".

But fine, the idea was to try and make them the swaskbucklers of the group, or closest to it. So give them some lightly armored melee bonuses and leave SA alone..maybe tweak another area.

But I do find it funny that your very post seems to suggest that the SA ability NEEDS to be toned down.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Since they've started releasing things like Complete Warrior for 3.5 after saying that they wouldn't redo the 3e class books. That was rather rude.

Not trolling here but why do you consider that rude? Personally I think if your revising your rules you need to revise your previous products for said rules. (Nothing crazy like 2nd edition to 3rd.)

I wish I they had taken a page out of Green Ronin's book and made them free but that’s a business decision and if they need to do it as they are to stay in business than I’ll live with it.

They need to do something about how and when the bring out new books, because the chimps they have throwing darts at a calender isn't working out.

I couldn't agree more look at their complete series for what not to do...

 

[Davelozzi]

TO WOTC: PLEASE post the SRD4.0 FIRST, before you print the books...

Larcen, I have to disagree. I think that actually releasing an SRD in advance will make things too chaotic as too many cooks spoiling the broth. I think WotC should pay attention to general trends and suggestions on these and other boards, as well as talking to non-internet gamers through marketing or whatever other means. But when it comes down to the final work, I think there needs to be a small team working together, focused on the job. Having the rules all out there and having everyone feel like they can have their full say may just prove to be divisive, as trying to please everyone will be pointless and counterproductive. And if it was going to happen as you suggested, a three month lead time wouldn't be nearly enough.

As always, all of this is in my own humble opinion, and mileage may vary, yada yada yada.

 

[DaveMage]

You know, I really like D&D the way it is now.

There were some changes in 3.5 that I like (+4 for the buff spells) and some things I didn't like (1 min/level for the buff spells).

But rather than a D&D 4.0, what I'd like to see is D&D: The Definitive Edition.

I'd like to see some minor rules tweaks, such as 10/magic DR changed back to 10/+1, 10/+2, etc. (while keeping the special material DR rules), but only rule changes that are relatively easy to integrate.

I'd like to see the presentation altered a bit rather than the rules. I'd like all the things a player needs (such as prestige classes and non-artifact magic items that can be created) to appear in the Player's Handbook. We might need to switch to a 2-volumes in a slipcase format (Volume I could be races/classes/combat, Volume II could be "Spells & Magic"), but *all* rules a player needs should be at their fingertips. The DM's guide could also have prestige classes, but focus on "villain" prestige classes.

The DM Bundle could then have the DMG and Monster Manual in a slipcase.

Overall though, why fix something that really isn't broken and already lends itself nicely to customization?

 

[MerakSpielman]

Overall though, why fix something that really isn't broken and already lends itself nicely to customization?

Because if publishing companies don't publish new books, they go out of business. If there's a market, the books will be made.

 

[Larcen]

Larcen, I have to disagree. I think that actually releasing an SRD in advance will make things too chaotic as too many cooks spoiling the broth. I think WotC should pay attention to general trends and suggestions on these and other boards, as well as talking to non-internet gamers through marketing or whatever other means. But when it comes down to the final work, I think there needs to be a small team working together, focused on the job. Having the rules all out there and having everyone feel like they can have their full say may just prove to be divisive, as trying to please everyone will be pointless and counterproductive. And if it was going to happen as you suggested, a three month lead time wouldn't be nearly enough.

As always, all of this is in my own humble opinion, and mileage may vary, yada yada yada.

Well, I guess I just have lost confidence with them. I don't really trust they will make all the right choices anymore. I would much rather trust the people on this board, for instance, then their playtesters it seems. There, I said it.

If you don't like the idea of giving the 4.0 draft to everyone, why not only RPGA (they do that now a bit don't they?) and maybe a select larger group of respected gamers outside WotC.

And obviously once all the votes are in, WOTC will still need their group to make the final decisions. So in the end, the group of cooks will be small.

 

[Blue_Kryptonite]

May as well jump in and throw up my dream "D&D 4.0" (Which will probably become my house rules if I ever get around to coordinating them):

- Random stats. 4d6 drop lowest, several "Optional" suggestions.
- Points. Lots of kinds, too. APs from D20 Modern, Hero Points from M&M, Character Points to purchase feats, templates, bonuses to rolled stats, etc.
Include Background or Plot Points that can alter the flow of the storyline (ala Torg).
- Races as purchased Templates.
- Tiered class system. Something like D20 Modern, but along the lines of Starting Class progressing to Profession progressing to Advanced Class progressing to Prestige Class. Unlimited mixing and matching with bonuses for following iconic paths.
- Unique features for each level.
- A rebuilt magic and item system focusing on Elements (Think of Dungeon Seige or Dark Age Of Camelot).
-Combat along the lines of M&M, but with the optional "Avoid Damage" and Hit Points rules left in.
- Genres, genres, genres! Let the DM's guide explain how to run a Grim & Gritty, how to run Hercules & Xena, and even how to run the D&D Cartoon if you like. Make it all about assembling options to custom-fit each and every playstyle.

Come to think of it, I do need to assemble that. One of these days. Sigh.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'd also like to see real, honest-to-goodness, set in stone RULES FOR MAGIC ITEM CREATION. Not guidelines. Real, core rules. I want all the items in the DMG to be made with this method. I want it to be sleek, efficient, and immune to power-gaming idiocies. I don't want to see another thread in the House Rules forum with somebody trying to make a ring of True Strike for a few measly thousand gold so they can get +20 on every single attack they every make ("it's only a first level spell, so it shouldn't be unbalanced....") Once these rules are set, put them in the freakin' PH instead of the DMG so the players can see what their craft-item feats can do. Charts for scroll and potion creation are, at the very least, a must-have.

I think you'll want to look at The Elements of Magic - Revised when it comes out in a few weeks. An item's cost is determined solely by the spell level used to create it. It's very straightforward.