D&D and the rising pandemic

Zardnaar

Legend
Understood.
But, at least that much could be articulated, with clear


I was just reading this: Mortality rate of COVID-19 patients on ventilators | Physician's Weekly
Questions about the efficacy of intensive care for Covid-19 patients.

One presumes that hospital care makes a big difference to Covid-19 outcomes. Does anyone have numbers on this?

Be Safe, Be Well,
Tom Bitonti

From what I've seen if you need a ventilator you're probably screwed anyway.

10-33% survive varying by country, last I read those numbers may have changed.

A lot of ventilators are in use in normal times. As of a few years ago 3 people in the USA use iron lungs.

I think NZ has around 160, some African countries have a handful I think Liberia has none along with some Pacific Islands.

Even if you have them they require training. See previous comment about medical staff being killed.
 

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Nagol

Unimportant
I think the worst aspect of it is that as a wealthy nation they have no need to remain open.

They're putting their wants against the consequences of death and trauma.

It's odd to me that of all nations it's Sweden to behave like this. If I had to guess what countries would flaunt the recommendations to enact quarantine protocols Sweden would be at the bottom of my list (but then of course I'm ignorant to the current status of their government).

There was an interview with their epidemiologist yesterday...https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01098-x

Apparently part of the problem is they didn't think they had a legal right to order entire cities/regions to close.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Understood.
But, at least that much could be articulated, with clear


I was just reading this: Mortality rate of COVID-19 patients on ventilators | Physician's Weekly
Questions about the efficacy of intensive care for Covid-19 patients.

One presumes that hospital care makes a big difference to Covid-19 outcomes. Does anyone have numbers on this?

Be Safe, Be Well,
Tom Bitonti

Short of receiving oxygen / ventilation, hospital care puts you under observation to check if you need the former. There aren't any treatments other than mechanical intervention.

Once you need oxygen/ventilation, not receiving it kills you.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
There was an interview with their epidemiologist yesterday...https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01098-x

Apparently part of the problem is they didn't think they had a legal right to order entire cities/regions to close.

Excellent Article! Thanks for sharing.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
There was an interview with their epidemiologist yesterday...https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01098-x

Apparently part of the problem is they didn't think they had a legal right to order entire cities/regions to close.

Wow, blaming the deaths on outbreaks at long term care homes.

I mean yes. That's a hotspot for deaths and I assume that is the hotspot for deaths in all similar countries. A large amount of the deaths in Canada are in long term care homes.

I don't see that as an argument against quarantine procedures.

Sweden has 2000 deaths and Finland and Norway each have 150-200.

I checked the date on that article because I assumed it was out of date, but no, it was written yesterday.

It seems that their approach is that they waited this long to shut things down and now it is too late so might as well ride it out.

The UK originally tried that strategy too right, and now they have the 2nd highest daily death toll in the world (2nd to USA naturally).
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Wow, blaming the deaths on outbreaks at long term care homes.

I mean yes. That's a hotspot for deaths and I assume that is the hotspot for deaths in all similar countries. A large amount of the deaths in Canada are in long term care homes.

I don't see that as an argument against quarantine procedures.

Sweden has 2000 deaths and Finland and Norway each have 150-200.

I checked the date on that article because I assumed it was out of date, but no, it was written yesterday.

It seems that their approach is that they waited this long to shut things down and now it is too late so might as well ride it out.

The UK originally tried that strategy too right, and now they have the 2nd highest daily death toll in the world (2nd to USA naturally).

I've been looking at deaths per million.

Media likes large numbers, but Sweden's one of the worst hit in the world in terms of per capita. I posted this a week or so ago when their deaths were 122 per million, USA had 66.

Best places to self isolate are Rarotonga (0 cases) and other Pacific Islands followed by NZ and Australia.

Ecudor also looks bad but due to lack of testing and other problems their official numbers don't like to bad but bodies are in the street levels of bad.

These guys (laoway86, SerpentZA, ADV China) were also ringing alarm bells in January. They lived in China for over a decade and can read internal Chinese releases and have friends in hospitals as his wife is a Chinese doctor (now in US).

Note has F bombs.

 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Being to optimistic leads to complacency and that gets people killed.

Herd immunity for example may end up as the best approach but I wouldn't be using it as my first approach more of a plan B.

I guess the question there is how long can an economy be shut down before a large portion of people start not being able to afford essentials. At that point the cure is worse than the disease - but I'm not sure how long that actually takes.

Speaking globally - any length of an economic shutdown is probably more deadly for poor countries than the virus itself.

Sweden's approach might be the best option long term but we don't know. If there's no vaccine and Corvid is recurring then yeah we will have to do that regardless.

Sure but every month you shut down also likely means people in your country are that much closer to running out of essentials and it's not like you can just flip a switch and bring the whole economy roaring to life again.

It's not just in terms of overwhelming the hospitals in terms of bed capacity but also buying time to get more beds and ppe for the staff.

A very good point. Though I'm not sure how much that is actually happening at least in the U.S.

I'd make an educated guess that at least 1/100 people in the U.S. already have had covid-19. To reach herd immunity we would be looking at worst case of millions dead. However, if say 1/20 people have already had it then we are looking at a few hundred thousand dead if we stopped everything right now. Which really isn't that bad considering current estimates are at like 66,000 but given the last few days of data I expect that projection to increase further.

But perhaps the most important question at this time is how many people have had the virus that haven't yet been documented as having it.

In Italy for example the doctors and nurses got sick and died. Some committed suicide as well.

Turns out ventilators don't make a massive difference.

Realistically one day numerous nation's might have to start making some crappy choices. Those choices mean that people will die.

But there might be better choices to make or ways to minimize the downsides of those choices.

As in all things, the choices you make to minimize the downsides of 1 thing may amplify the downsides of another thing and at this point we really don't know long term what to be more afraid of.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I guess the question there is how long can an economy be shut down before a large portion of people start not being able to afford essentials. At that point the cure is worse than the disease - but I'm not sure how long that actually takes.

Speaking globally - any length of an economic shutdown is probably more deadly for poor countries than the virus itself.



Sure but every month you shut down also likely means people in your country are that much closer to running out of essentials and it's not like you can just flip a switch and bring the whole economy roaring to life again.



A very good point. Though I'm not sure how much that is actually happening at least in the U.S.

I'd make an educated guess that at least 1/100 people in the U.S. already have had covid-19. To reach herd immunity we would be looking at worst case of millions dead. However, if say 1/20 people have already had it then we are looking at a few hundred thousand dead if we stopped everything right now. Which really isn't that bad considering current estimates are at like 66,000 but given the last few days of data I expect that projection to increase further.

But perhaps the most important question at this time is how many people have had the virus that haven't yet been documented as having it.



As in all things, the choices you make to minimize the downsides of 1 thing may amplify the downsides of another thing and at this point we really don't know long term what to be more afraid of.

The one size fits all approach doesn't work it seems.

What's an option in rich western countries isn't an option in say India.

People going hungary is already happening in parts if the world. In the USA you already have people lining up for food.

First thing I did 5 weeks ago was busy out some material via Google on the great depression.

I wasn't joking when I said Americans are going to be seeing thing they haven't had to deal with since FDR.

Sent back a bit further as well both with Spanish Flu and Black Death, Antonine Plague and Justinian.

It's not always the virus itself but the break down in food supply, wars etc that kills more people.
Let's say lockdown saves 200000 American s the disruption to the world means 30 million die elsewhere.

Reality still hasn't really started to hit as it takes a while to run down food and money reserves. Here the government keep food production going along with freight as they count as essential.

Not sure what the exact unemployment figures are but 60-80% are sitting at home atm that will drop 20% next week.

500k are working out if a population of 5 million and a workforce of 2.5 million.
 


Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
So I get called out when I start talking about a bunch of stuff we don't know about the virus. How about I call you out for the same. We don't know hardly any of that so its not better of you to suggest the worst case than it is for me to suggest the best.
Blind optimism doesn't help. The "best" is what you hope for. The "worst" is what you actually plan for. Doing otherwise is opening yourself up to failure.
 

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