D&D General D&D is now Steampunk (poll)

[Zardnaar]

What I'd say is, it was part of the completely BS pop-history hodgepodge that people mistakenly think is "Medieval".

It has ladies in 12th century fashion living in 9th century castles swooning over 15th century plate-armored knights while lords practicing 16th century political philosophy fight wars using 7th century military tactics to fight over resources that wouldn't be known to be actually valuable until the 19th century (like platinum) using communications and travel ability that rivals 20th century infrastructure.

It's literally not possible to pin the entire thing down to a singular period of human history because it is actively taste-testing just about every century that came after the fall of Rome (which, whatever your beliefs about it, "Rome" as a Europe-spanning empire was gone by the 6th century.) But this hodgepodge, as ridiculous as it is, is what a lot of people think when they imagine "Medieval Europe": something that somehow combines the Wars of the Roses, plate armor, rapiers, Charlemagne, courtly love, and knights errant all into one big blob, no matter how hilariously wrong that is in terms of the actual history of Europe.

But what this means is, D&D has always been a highly selective take on what is "medieval" and what isn't. Every edition has chosen that take differently in one way or another. To claim a betrayal of that spirit only now, when the seed was planted literally before D&D was even a twinkle in Arneson-and-Gygax's eyes, is either disingenuous, or a demonstration of self-deception.

Not to many people get hung up on medieval vs gritty.

OD&D/1E had that dark ages/sword and Sorcery vibe. 2E eliminated that along with half orc/assassins and Monks.

Medival/1E purists are few and far between now. Its shadowdark and clones of B/X and OD&D now vs 20 years ago.

2E has also had its reputation improve and good condition boxed sets are pricey now.

No one cares about 3.0 either books start at $5 retail now.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

2E went more 17th century and 5E went 17th century Renaissance Faire.

A couple of things that happened in these editions is, in 2nd more professional artists were being used, and by 3rd the printing went into colour.

Now, professional artists use reference material, and that becomes even more important with colour. So those artists were drawing what they could see around them, and when delving into historical reference material, focused on the more colourful and interesting outfits. Now from the 15th-17th century, fashions for European nobility became more colourful and elaborate (you can see this by the passing of sumptuary laws, that made it illegal for non-nobles to were certain colours), and thus, more interesting to artists and Ren-Faire cosplayers.

Also casting a long shadow is the Victorian artistic movement known as the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, which pretty much invented the completely fake medieval look. Tolkien is often considered a late associate of the Arts and Crafts movement, and hence connected to the Pre-Raphaelite art style. You saw a lot of this in The Peter Jackson movies.

Now, when I first started playing D&D, the art was mostly crude pencil drawings, so I wasn't particularly influenced by it. Pointy-hatted wizards and fighters with horned helmets and no pants were clearly just a bit of a joke. So I leaned to not let the art in the book influence my D&D.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Not to many people get hung up on medieval vs gritty.

OD&D/1E had that dark ages/sword and Sorcery vibe. 2E eliminated that along with half orc/assassins and Monks.

Medival/1E purists are few and far between now. Its shadowdark and clones of B/X and OD&D now vs 20 years ago.

2E has also had its reputation improve and good condition boxed sets are pricey now.

See, I don't even think it's "dark ages" per se.

I think the key difference is that D&D went from something kinda-sorta-ish like realpolitik and logistics, to something kinda-sorta-ish like romanticism and adventure.

Folks who like realpolitik see romanticism as gaudy, garish, childish, a colorful but unserious profusion of silly nothings that never cohere--even when that description is blatantly biased, inaccurate, and unfair. Folks who like romanticism see realpolitik as dingy, drab, pretentious, a bleak and depressing profusion of self-congratulatory nothings that never cohere--even when that description is blatantly biased, inaccurate, and unfair. Folks who see HIGH ADVENTURE! as the core of the experience find logistics plodding, time-wasting, and just generally pointless busy-work, "filling out your taxes" and the like. Folks who see campaign logistics as the core of the experience find "high adventure" nonsensical, slapdash, time-wasting, and just generally pointless play-acting, "shouting your combos" and the like.

D&D has been offering something to both groups for a while now, but trying to pretend that the two have completely copacetic goals and interests. I obviously think that position is mistaken.

 

[Autumnal]

@EzekielRaiden , I really, really like your thoughts around D&D defaults, and agree that it’s crucial to recognize that the game began as wildly anachronistic melding of elements. In some ways, it’s culturally maybe more like the early modern Holy Roman Empire than anything else, but set in the Wild West as administered by a bitterly divided and feuding Society for Creative Anachronism board of directors. And that was Day Zero.

 

[Zardnaar]

See, I don't even think it's "dark ages" per se.

I think the key difference is that D&D went from something kinda-sorta-ish like realpolitik and logistics, to something kinda-sorta-ish like romanticism and adventure.

Folks who like realpolitik see romanticism as gaudy, garish, childish, a colorful but unserious profusion of silly nothings that never cohere--even when that description is blatantly biased, inaccurate, and unfair. Folks who like romanticism see realpolitik as dingy, drab, pretentious, a bleak and depressing profusion of self-congratulatory nothings that never cohere--even when that description is blatantly biased, inaccurate, and unfair. Folks who see HIGH ADVENTURE! as the core of the experience find logistics plodding, time-wasting, and just generally pointless busy-work, "filling out your taxes" and the like. Folks who see campaign logistics as the core of the experience find "high adventure" nonsensical, slapdash, time-wasting, and just generally pointless play-acting, "shouting your combos" and the like.

D&D has been offering something to both groups for a while now, but trying to pretend that the two have completely copacetic goals and interests. I obviously think that position is mistaken.

Ever read OD&D, Grew Hawk boxed set (1981). Gritty Points of Light type vibe.
Very different to say FR vibe.

 

[Morrus]

No, it's not even vaguely steampunk by any definition of the genre I've come across.

It's not really anything other than "D&D', frankly. It's its own genre, and has been for a long time. If I had to pick something I guess I'd say American Ren Faire.

 

[Corinnguard]

Too late by years

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There was a thread about this setting being brought back for 5e on EN World. Anything new since then?

 

[TiQuinn]

Every time one of my millennial parent friends gripes about Skibidi Toilet or Labubus, it's all just "We're 40 years old, of course this all seems dumb to us, embrace your cringe you old fool."

Totally off topic: I want to save this line forever. The day someone called millennials old and gave them the boomer treatment.

Btw, if they ever gripe about Labubus, remind them about Tamagotchis, beanie babies, trolls, and Hello Kitty throughout the years.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Totally off topic: I want to save this line forever. The day someone called millennials old and gave them the boomer treatment.

Btw, if they ever gripe about Labubus, remind them about Tamagotchis, beanie babies, trolls, and Hello Kitty throughout the years.

I read that line and went "a wha de wha? and a who?" I know i could look them up but I have not had my coffee yet.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

A very quick summary:

Q) Is current D&D medieval? A) No.

Q) Did D&D used to be medieval? A) No.

Q) Is D&D steampunk? A) No.

Q) Is D&D D&D? A) Yes.