D&D 5E D&D New Edition Design Looks Soon?

WotC’s Ray Winninger has hinted on Twitter that we may be seeing something of the 2024 next edition of D&D soon — “you’ll get a first look at some of the new design work soon.”.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Sure but changing the chassis is absolutely vital too, because the chassis is "A 1970s stereotype of a Chinese Shaolin Monk" in terms of the built-in abilities and so on.

a slight error it is a copy of a guy who learned karate then it dressed in Shaolin cosplay, personally I want to separate the fighting style from the subclass as it would make building more variety easier plus we could do much more cool archetypes for subclasses with out sacrificing the core of the martial arts.

 

[Islayre d'Argolh]

A bunch of half-arsed subclasses which touch on a concept that obviously should be a class is not a smart or effective way to handle things.

It's not that obvious.

From my point of view Eldritch Knights, Hexblades & Bladesingers are good-looking-and-functionnal "Sword & Magic" heroes : the concept is succesfully done in 5e.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't see the changes they've previewed as a few tweaks. You do, so we're just not going to agree on this.

We don't have to. We just have to be clear about the fact, that "those who want a 6e should get one" only want what they see as a minor system upgrade, evolution, not revolution. So no, making a completely different edition won't make most of them them happy.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sure, but they want an edition change so they can have an edition all to themselves. Which they can do now.

I don't know who is they. I have not seen anyone asking for a system change. I surely don't want a system change. I want a compilation of the changes that already have happened.

 

[teitan]

X-Men came out 10 years before 5e. And Iron Man came out 4 years prior. I've never heard anything about the "superhero bubble bursting". We had 10 years of it constantly growing in popularity. That's why marvel was able to churn them out after 2008 as a way to print money.

There was a lot of talk about the superhero bubble bursting before the MCU hit is big and how doing their own movies was a huge gamble for Marvel. The Avengers was a big risk on their end and it paid off, especially their long game storytelling. And the superhero Bubble did burst. Marvel succeeded by genre diversification. But I still seriously, 110% doubt it had an influence on 5e. People like cool powers. They gave people cool powers. Nothing more than that. 4e was all about them minis because they were a huge success and Hasbro saw dollar signs. It was trying to cash in on MMO’s because they were popular and trying to get some of that money. 5e wasn’t even a blip to Hasbro when it came out. They had a shoe string budget to work on and had to farm everything out. Mearls and company wanted to make a game people wanted and it was made based on feedback from the playtest, not from Hasbro bean counters. We know this was a fact.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Because a spell slot is one of the ways you can pay for a moderate AC on your caster. Opportunity costs are costs too – dragonborn or mountain dwarves generally speaking are not very good choices for wizards (no Int bonus or anything else that makes them better at actually casting).

except the proof is that mage armor at will isn't broken is shadow armor

They are close when evaluating them as a whole. A small AC bonus that lasts all day, or a big AC bonus that lasts one round? Yeah, that seems balanced to me. They just have their power in different parts of the spell: mage armor has a long duration, and shield has a strong effect. It's like asking what makes a bigger hole: a shovel, or a stick of dynamite. The dynamite can make a pretty big hole once detonated, but probably not as big a hole as you could get working with a shovel all day long (assuming reasonably loose soil). But if someone offers you a whole crate of shovels, or a whole crate of dynamite, that changes things. More shovels won't be useful, because you can still only use one at a time. Sure, it might be neat to have an extra in case the one you're using breaks, but that's a marginal issue. But a whole crate of dynamite means you can set them off one after another and make a REALLY big hole. That doesn't mean that "stick of dynamite" is a better digging tool than "shovel", only that the shovel hits diminishing returns much sooner.

except the proof is that mage armor at will isn't broken is shadow armor


I can see you need to prep it, I can see you need to 'know' it... but why do you need to spend a slot? cause tradition

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My laugh is for this line, though I actually sympathize. Those two spells out to be made good, or just gotten rid of.

friends, true strike, and blade ward have VERY situational uses but are NEVER worth taking. I even made a magic ring called 'the ring of uselessness' that had all three cantrips each 1/day and didn't require attunment... a PC had it for 12 levels and never once found a use for it.

 

[teitan]

look up what movies have made over a billion dollars. look at the highest grossing movies of the last 5 years...

if this is a bust I PRAY for a bust like it any day now.

Various articles going back years on the expected bust.

5 Reasons Superhero Movies Are a Bubble That Will Soon Burst

Bad news: The explosion of big-budget superhero movies is a bubble that seems poised to burst. How do we know? Because it's happened before.

www.cracked.com

Will 'Civil War' finally burst the superhero film bubble?

The new superhero orgy 'Civil War' is a reminder that costumed heroes are everywhere at the movies. Have we reached peak comic book?

www.macleans.ca

How many superhero movies is too many?

Is Marvel's Ant-Man a step too far? Americans have seen a lot of movies based on comic books, but there are signs that the trend is over.

www.cnbc.com

'Captain America' Chris Evans Isn't Scared of Superhero Fatigue: 'Audiences Are Going to Still Go'

Actor responds to Steven Spielberg's prediction that the genre will go "the way of the Western"

www.thewrap.com

Superhero Movie Fatigue? I Tire of This Argument…

Not so super after all?

them0vieblog.com

I might be done with superheroes and their movies

What if they announced a “Justice League” movie and nobody cared? That’s exactly what seemed to happen last week when Warner Bros. officially confirmed that a film uniting its biggest superheroes —…

nypost.com

So superhero movies back when Marvel was kicking off were not considered sure fire hits unless they had Batman. Even Spider-Man was flopping. When D&D came out there were articles coming out from major news sources asking about superhero fatigue. That they still would go on to routinely break 1bn in worldwide sales was a couple years off. Even Age of Ultron did not do as well as expected before it became routine for even mediocre films like Captain Marvel to do 1bn without blinking.

 

[Reynard]

So superhero movies back when Marvel was kicking off were not considered sure fire hits unless they had Batman. Even Spider-Man was flopping. When D&D came out there were articles coming out from major news sources asking about superhero fatigue. That they still would go on to routinely break 1bn in worldwide sales was a couple years off. Even Age of Ultron did not do as well as expected before it became routine for even mediocre films like Captain Marvel to do 1bn without blinking.

I've completely lost the thread: why are we talking about super hero movies?

 

[Mind of tempest]

Various articles going back years on the expected bust.

5 Reasons Superhero Movies Are a Bubble That Will Soon Burst

Bad news: The explosion of big-budget superhero movies is a bubble that seems poised to burst. How do we know? Because it's happened before.

www.cracked.com

Will 'Civil War' finally burst the superhero film bubble?

The new superhero orgy 'Civil War' is a reminder that costumed heroes are everywhere at the movies. Have we reached peak comic book?

www.macleans.ca

How many superhero movies is too many?

Is Marvel's Ant-Man a step too far? Americans have seen a lot of movies based on comic books, but there are signs that the trend is over.

www.cnbc.com

'Captain America' Chris Evans Isn't Scared of Superhero Fatigue: 'Audiences Are Going to Still Go'

Actor responds to Steven Spielberg's prediction that the genre will go "the way of the Western"

www.thewrap.com

Superhero Movie Fatigue? I Tire of This Argument…

Not so super after all?

them0vieblog.com

I might be done with superheroes and their movies

What if they announced a “Justice League” movie and nobody cared? That’s exactly what seemed to happen last week when Warner Bros. officially confirmed that a film uniting its biggest superheroes —…

nypost.com

So superhero movies back when Marvel was kicking off were not considered sure fire hits unless they had Batman. Even Spider-Man was flopping. When D&D came out there were articles coming out from major news sources asking about superhero fatigue. That they still would go on to routinely break 1bn in worldwide sales was a couple years off. Even Age of Ultron did not do as well as expected before it became routine for even mediocre films like Captain Marvel to do 1bn without blinking.

I think only now are we truly getting superhero fatigue as the lack of direction is hurting them at marvel and everyone else seems to struggle to do as well.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I've completely lost the thread: why are we talking about super hero movies?

someone pointed out that they are the modern mythology and one of the inspirations that D&D has and will draw on.

I think only now are we truly getting superhero fatigue as the lack of direction is hurting them at marvel and everyone else seems to struggle to do as well.

once again, you will see 'only' multi million dollar movies then you will see billion dollar ones... just this Wednesday we MIGHT have seen what the new connective tissue is on the MCU (not spoiling about Ms Marvel), but I expect we will see MCU movies well past the 2024 5.5/6/anniversary edition books... and batman and superman movies will still be hot come 7e.

 

[Mind of tempest]

someone pointed out that they are the modern mythology and one of the inspirations that D&D has and will draw on.

once again, you will see 'only' multi million dollar movies then you will see billion dollar ones... just this Wednesday we MIGHT have seen what the new connective tissue is on the MCU (not spoiling about Ms Marvel), but I expect we will see MCU movies well past the 2024 5.5/6/anniversary edition books... and batman and superman movies will still be hot come 7e.

on superhero movies, the question is will it happen in time to counteract the waning interest.

 

[Oofta]

You know, that reflects what I noticed in 4e at times as well. When I get the gumption up to play 4e all the way up, I can...and I can have fun. But, if I can just have a game that goes to level 10 and end it, I think that may be my preference as 4e is actually a dream of fun up until that point. After that point, I still have fun with it, but it starts to get more and more work the higher levels players go...especially for the DM trying to make sure that everyone is telling you their powers correctly and using them the right way.

Yeah, given a choice I'd still play 5e as a personal preference, but 4E held together pretty well up to 10th. When it came to powers ... ugh. There was one guy who would abuse the DM's (and group's) trust by just making up stuff that their powers could do. When questioned on it, they'd squint at their hand written notes (written in super-tiny script so no one else could read it) and confirm that yes, their PC could take away the action surge of the enemy. Then when I finally stopped the game, asked the specific name of the power and looked it up it said nothing of the sort. The guy shrugged and said "nobody questioned me on it". Even though I had questioned them on it every time. It was an AL game, even then I should have just banned the guy since I was the running the game days. We double checked every power his PC had from then on.

The other side of it was that there were a lot of conditional effects. As DM I'd put a marker on minis and ask the player to remember what effect(s) they were under. Come to their turn? They'd shrug and say "I dunno". Really? I have to track a dozen monsters and every possible condition on every PC as well? I eventually came up with a color-coded system because people couldn't be bothered to jot a quick note.

It's been an issue to a certain degree with every edition of course*, and people honestly misread special abilities now and then. But 4E turned it up to 11, especially at higher levels.

*I now have condition rings for 5E

 

[Reynard]

someone pointed out that they are the modern mythology and one of the inspirations that D&D has and will draw on.

once again, you will see 'only' multi million dollar movies then you will see billion dollar ones... just this Wednesday we MIGHT have seen what the new connective tissue is on the MCU (not spoiling about Ms Marvel), but I expect we will see MCU movies well past the 2024 5.5/6/anniversary edition books... and batman and superman movies will still be hot come 7e.

But what do trends in super hero movie popularity have to do with trends in RPG sales and edition cycles? Note that I am not saying that there aren't any -- it may well be that some common undercurrent of popular culture does impact both at the same time -- but I'm not seeing an actual argument for why they would be connected.

I often say that 5E is the MCU edition, but I don't mean that it is inspired by the MCU in any way. Rather, it is designed to be fun and palatable and inoffensive in the same way the the MCU is, which broadens the appeal but can come at the cost of opportunities to experiment or deviate.

 

[Oofta]

We’re likely to see more tweaks than entirely reworked systems. We already know about the race and class changes from Xanathar’s and Tasha’s. Background feats and crummy fear chains from the UAs. Short rests going bye bye.

We can assume short rest classes are getting some kind of feature that lets them recharge X times per long rest. I can’t see WotC giving monks and warlocks roughly double the ki and spell slots they have now. Maybe scale them down a bit and rebalance based on recharging prof bonus times per long rest.

The bigger the changes the more likely they are to split the fan base. I doubt they’d make that mistake. Again.

It will be interesting to see what they do with monks. Although I'm enjoying my monk in my current game, recharging everything on a short rest is a bit much especially with the optional rules turned on.

 

[Oofta]

The problem is there hasn't been a popular Monk stereotype since the 1970s. It was replaced with Martial Artist in the public consciousness. You might bring in Avatar for the '00s, but Aang is one character among a vast array of supernatural martial artists in that, and probably the least interesting/engaging one (he's almost the "straight-man" for the whole show). D&D only has Monk, not Martial Artist, because of the very peculiar and specific time it was developed.

I definitely agree with your point re: personal range of media though.

What classes are based on fictional tropes that you think monk is that much different? Do D&D wizards, warlocks, paladins, clerics or rangers really match any pre-existing fiction? Why would monks be any different? Most classes in D&D are their own fictional construct which are inspired by, but do not accurately model, other fiction.

 

[Oofta]

Both gradually fell apart at around 10th, just in different ways. 4E it was more specifically 11-13, as you just got so many Reaction, Interrupt, Immediate and so on abilities on PCs and monsters that things slowed to a crawl, and there was, frankly, too much in the way of move-countermove. 3E LFQW had become so extreme by 10 that you might as well forget non-casters or bad casters. Other factors caused 3E problems as well - the CR system completely broke down at that point, and became actively disingenuous, the magic item reliance got much larger, mechanically (without ever being as honestly explained as 4E), the 5-minute workday and "scry and fry" started becoming increasing issues (even if players resist them, at that sort of level they become obviously reasonable approaches).

The group in my current campaign is 16th level. I've run and played games up to 20th. It gets a bit gonzo, but it doesn't fall apart like 3.x did after 14th level or so or grind to a halt at higher levels as 4E did. Not perfect, of course, but better than previous editions. If the 5 minute work day is an issue in a game, don't allow a 5 minute work day.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But what do trends in super hero movie popularity have to do with trends in RPG sales and edition cycles? Note that I am not saying that there aren't any -- it may well be that some common undercurrent of popular culture does impact both at the same time -- but I'm not seeing an actual argument for why they would be connected.

the idea is that modern D&D (really any WotC D*D) is drawing some (not all) insperation from comics and comics movies

I often say that 5E is the MCU edition, but I don't mean that it is inspired by the MCU in any way. Rather, it is designed to be fun and palatable and inoffensive in the same way the the MCU is, which broadens the appeal but can come at the cost of opportunities to experiment or deviate.

I also agree with what you are saying here... but I can't help but remember that there was a magic shield in 4e that you could throw bounce off someone and catch...

 

[Reynard]

I also agree with what you are saying here... but I can't help but remember that there was a magic shield in 4e that you could throw bounce off someone and catch...

For sure, cool visuals and stunts from wider media have always seeped into D&D. It is designed to let you inhabit your fantasy heroes, after all. But aside from a trick or two, I don't see a lot of parallels.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What classes are based on fictional tropes that you think monk is that much different? Do D&D wizards, warlocks, paladins, clerics or rangers really match any pre-existing fiction? Why would monks be any different? Most classes in D&D are their own fictional construct which are inspired by, but do not accurately model, other fiction.

I will not only agree but raise you the great circle of self refrence...

Games like WoW took the idea of some of these classes (like say Paladin) and switched it up a bit... but then D&D took inspiration form WoW Paladins. (go again with warlock, death knight ect)

Not only did D&D pretty much whole cloth make up concepts (mostly by stealing ideas and mashing them together...or seeing a kids plastic toy and making that) but then OTHER things grew out of D&D became popular and then D&D took back inspiration for the idea.

So D&D created the entire IDEA of these kinds of games and style of games, and you can see 100+ RPGs that have come out since (some still in business a lot not) so when I see a REALLY big departure from D&D like say Fudge/Fate or WoD or one that is similar but still different like Torg or Rifts, I often look to see "hey, what could D&D learn form this" and sometimes it's a mechanic or an idea (sometimes good should do, sometime bad please never do) and realize odds are TORG and Fate would not be a thing without D&D and what they took from it (sometimes taking a mechanic and sometime avoiding that mechanic)