d20 backlash??

Gomez said:
As president of the Call of Cthulhu d20 Preservation Society, I categorically deny that CoC d20 is dead! ;) Just dreaming!

Cthulhu fans are notorious for that. You know, keeping alive long dead and forgotten horrors... :uhoh:
 

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Insight said:
You're crazy if you think d20 is dying off. There are more and more d20 products coming out every month, and I am seeing far fewer non d20 books on the shelves every day.

This is unfortunate, as I am not a proponent of homogenous gaming. But that's the way it is right now, and there's little we can do about it.

I think you're mistaken.

Atlas: Penumbra
AEG: Rogukan and Swashbuckling Adventures
Sword & Sorcery Studios: Scarred Lands

Those were big elements. All gone from the d20 field. Heck, throw in some others that never made it big like Hollistic and Pinnacle.

How many new d20 books are coming out say in March? I assure you that it wasn't as many as last year.

Then again, I'm not counting PDFs which changes everything.

I'm also not saying that d20, especially D&D, isn't the biggest seller or the most popular game.
 

I would agree with many here that d20 'blacklash' is too harsh a word to describe what's going on.

But I would also agree that the d20 bubble has burst. We will definately see more original game systems out there. The other game systems out there will probably be stronger after the bubble burst as well. The jury's still out whether the New World of Darkness setting is good, but their dice system is vastly superior to the old one. I think this is due in part to WotC's work on d20. The developers at White Wolf saw that people wanted solid, consistent rules that weren't up to DM's whim to interpret them.
 

Insight said:
You're crazy if you think d20 is dying off. There are more and more d20 products coming out every month, and I am seeing far fewer non d20 books on the shelves every day.

I don't believe this is the case (at least not for print products). If you look at, say, Game Trade Magazine, and count the number of d20 products announced for new release each month, and plot it out over the past five years, I think you'll find that the rate of new releases is far lower now than it was at the peak of production (say, in 2002/2003, when more than 100 new d20 books were scheduled for release each month across much of that period).

What you see in a local store may not reflect the total market. For example, at the peak of d20 output, I have trouble imagining that a well-run store would bring in even one of every new d20 book. Even if they had the space for it, there were just too many titles (and too many of them covering the same topics), so even the largest stores were having to pick and choose among them. As a result, it's entirely possible that a given store today may be carrying more d20 titles than they did in the past, depending on local circumstances.
 

Hmmm, backlash? No, I suspect a backing up because of too much competition in the D20 field. In other words companies are trying to avoid the glut.

I expect (with little real evidence) that as the field opens up and fewer companies produce D20 products we will see some companies re-enter the field. Right now it is a bit too crowded, and the ceonomy is not doing all that well, which impacts sales.

Another factor is that the big moneymaker for most games is the core rulebook(s), if you are creating a D20 product you will not corner those profits, it instead benefits a competitor.

Creating 'dual stat' products like AEG did means splitting your labors, and perhaps not pleasing either audience entirely. I am a fan of both R&K and D20 Rokugan, but I did not much like most of the dual stat books, which seemed a bit... shoddy compared to the R&K books. A format problem rather than a rules problem. For that matter AEG sank both Swashbuckling Adventures and 7th Sea at the same time, so that really does not count toward backlash.

The Auld Grump
 

Gundark said:
I am in a bit of discussion with someone over on the Iron Kingdoms boards about a d20 backlash? He/she points to AEG pulling L5R from the d20 line as evidence of said backlash.

That seems more like evidence that dual-stat arrangements aren't that great in the long term.

I don't believe there's a d20 backlash, but the RPG market in general does appear to have plateaued, in the best case, and may be shrinking. Lots of companies are cutting back on their release schedule and focusing on maintaining their core audience rather than trying to grow.
 

There are fewer established, print companies doing d20 stuff. In fact, of the top d20 companies I don't think any of them were around 6 years ago. I could be wrong, though.

Way back when d20 first came out of the gate, I remember Ryan Dancey saying that he was surprised that so many companies had jumped on to d20 so aggressively. He had expected a much slower build up of volume. Instead, we saw a rapid flood of material.

The one thing I've learned about the gaming industry is that, almost invariably, if anyone has a whiff of success with an RPG product there'll be imitators. The costs to produce stuff are low enough that you can risk a few books on what looks like a hot topic. d20 definitely fell into that category.

The problem is that of all the systems out there, d20 is the hardest to design for on two levels.

First, it's the most mechanically precise game on the market. Even more importantly, its fans are aware of the mechanics and generally seek mastery of them. Unlike the hordes of rules light games out there, D&D rewards you for learning the rules.

The problem is that, as a whole, the industry didn't have anyone trained to write d20 stuff. Early products (mine included) are full of rules gaffes. However, this never really got any better. The industry as a whole wasn't used to producing a product like D&D. If you look around the market, the staggering majority of RPGs use simple rules sets. d20 presents a mode of design that most writers in the industry aren't comfortable with, even 5 years after its release.

This dovetails into the second point - most publishers and game writers simple don't get D&D. The staggering majority of d20 books aren't bad, or horribly written, they're just pointless. There are literally hundreds of titles out there that don't offer any real, compelling reason to buy them. My sense is that, in a lot of cases, publishers just solicited ideas from freelancers and published the ones that sounded good. Very few, if any, companies had long term plans for their d20 publishing schedules, or any predictions for how d20 could evolve and how to respond to likely changes as the market matured.

The problem I see now is that WotC is leveraging its advantages to produce designs that are consistently superior on every level to third party stuff. For a time, d20 stuff could compete with WotC. Wizards had the same problem with building up a knowledge base and methods for d20 design. They also produced softcover, black and white books just like d20 companies. Now, neither of those are factors any more.

So, IMO that's why you see a slowdown in d20 products. There's always been a backlash - a lot of people in the industry hate d20, and a load of dysfunctional gamers will hate whatever's popular. But that's been there since day 1. I remember people claimed that d20 would be a colossal failure. When the books started selling, those same people predicted that d20 couldn't handle other games or settings. When they were proven wrong again, they predicted the death of d20 and have done so now for 4, maybe 5 years.
 


Yeah, when I say 'on the shelves', I mean available for sale (PDFs, Online, Stores, etc). And maybe this is just my FLGS, but I'm not seeing a hugh uptick in non d20 stuff, and there are far more d20 groups than non d20 groups in my experience, so, even if products start to slow down, people are still going to be using them, and that's the bottom line anyway when it comes to measuring whether something has died off. Sure, you could talk sales figures, but I don't have access to those, so I can't really measure the 'dying off' in that sense. I can only report my perception based on what I have observed of the market.
 


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