Daggerheart General Thread [+]

[zakael19]

Also, add me to the "these combats can be pretty quick actually."

On-balance/slightly above Bruiser + Skulk + Ranged x 3 vs my 3 players and we ran through it with some great color + a tag team + still learning abilities and such in ~15 minutes. We actually managed to do a "combat to end the night" without going super over!

 

[aramis erak]

Well, there's still a cost to use it (it's not a free +2 all the time), and if you go for strict optimization, you're going to be missing out on using it elsewhere.

Honestly, Experiences are almost exactly like Fate's Aspects, so it's probably a good idea to read things like What Makes A Good Aspect.

Not a bad idea, but "exactly like" is a gross overstatement and oversimplification.

First, there is the range issue either can be invoked for +2... but on DH, that's on a 2⋯24 range being affected, while in Fate, it's either a -4 to +4, or -5 to +5. (There are flavors with 2d6-7, others with other methods of getting -5 to +5. So that's 22, vs 8 or 10. Less than half as effective mathematically.

Further, Experiences lack the Declaration use and Compel use.
A large part of making a good Aspect is the Compel uses; irrelevant to DH as written.
Declaration would make sense, but it's not provided for in DH as written, tho' justifying a narration by mention of an experience is readily within the scope of the best practices.

A few Fate flavors also allow an Impair use - turning an aspect against the user. This differs from a compel in method and magnitude.

The best Fate Aspects aim for all three/four uses; often, the bonus use is secondary to the compel.

Other similar mechanics:
Aspects in Houses of the Blooded and Blood & Honor. These are a bit stricter than Fate Aspects, drawing them from the same source
2d20: Traits in Star Trek Adventures and Dune - depending upon the action and their relevance one of: +1, -1, allow, prohibit. (also in several others. Omitted in Fallout for some reason.)
BIGs in Mouse Guard. Hinder for one turn in the player phase, or use for a bonus now.
Cortex Plus/Cortex Prime have Distinctions: one's free to add. Can either add a d8 (helping) or d4 (risks hindering)
Features in FFG's End of the World series of RPGs.

The thing is, any of these can provide good advice, but in all of them, except DH, there's a negative use to them, too.

 

[aramis erak]

I don't disagree that there are controls in place to lessen the impact of optimization here... I just find the narrative focus and the suggestion a strange pairing. I thunk it sends a mixed message... but I also feel critically looking at the mechanics and advice is being frowned on in this thread so I'm discussing it elsewhere for now.

Burning Wheel is noted for that same dichotomy.
I found it something my players did in The One Ring... on their second characters, at least.
Cortex Plus, especially Firefly, has enough flexibility that character optimization is not overly beneficial... but it is beneficial.
Quite a few narrative focused games encourage playing the game aspect hard... but not invoking it all that often.

 

[Faolyn]

Not a bad idea, but "exactly like" is a gross overstatement and oversimplification.

First, there is the range issue either can be invoked for +2... but on DH, that's on a 2⋯24 range being affected, while in Fate, it's either a -4 to +4, or -5 to +5. (There are flavors with 2d6-7, others with other methods of getting -5 to +5. So that's 22, vs 8 or 10. Less than half as effective mathematically.

Further, Experiences lack the Declaration use and Compel use.
A large part of making a good Aspect is the Compel uses; irrelevant to DH as written.
Declaration would make sense, but it's not provided for in DH as written, tho' justifying a narration by mention of an experience is readily within the scope of the best practices.

A few Fate flavors also allow an Impair use - turning an aspect against the user. This differs from a compel in method and magnitude.

The best Fate Aspects aim for all three/four uses; often, the bonus use is secondary to the compel.

Other similar mechanics:
Aspects in Houses of the Blooded and Blood & Honor. These are a bit stricter than Fate Aspects, drawing them from the same source
2d20: Traits in Star Trek Adventures and Dune - depending upon the action and their relevance one of: +1, -1, allow, prohibit. (also in several others. Omitted in Fallout for some reason.)
BIGs in Mouse Guard. Hinder for one turn in the player phase, or use for a bonus now.
Cortex Plus/Cortex Prime have Distinctions: one's free to add. Can either add a d8 (helping) or d4 (risks hindering)
Features in FFG's End of the World series of RPGs.

The thing is, any of these can provide good advice, but in all of them, except DH, there's a negative use to them, too.

That's why I said "almost".

No, the mechanics are different, because they're different games. But what goes into making an aspect in Fate is basically the same as what goes into making an experience in Daggerheart.

 

[Vael]

Yup, this is what I’ve been saying and my experience yesterday bore it out!

The ones with relentless can be a good thematic “oh naughty word” challenge but not really a full boss. Which is fine! Sometimes you don’t want a near death encounter but do want a solo guardian or stalker or something. I think the “challenge” for the encounter math should probably have been a little better explained.

Well, TBF ... I did just run a single Solo against 5 PCs and while they weren't fully rested, this battle was not a cakewalk and if I'd had the Flickerfly focus fire on a PC, I could have downed one. The Wizard and Warrior both got rocked in the battle. Overall, I've found combat math accurate, none of my combats have felt like either side was outclassed, and if I were a hair more ruthless I could have had PCs make Death Moves.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

But what goes into making an aspect in Fate is basically the same as what goes into making an experience in Daggerheart.

Though the one difference is that in Fate you should think about how to be able to put a negative spin on an aspect (to get more Fate points), while in Daggerheart it's all positive, as long as you have a point to spend.

 

[zakael19]

Well, TBF ... I did just run a single Solo against 5 PCs and while they weren't fully rested, this battle was not a cakewalk and if I'd had the Flickerfly focus fire on a PC, I could have downed one. The Wizard and Warrior both got rocked in the battle. Overall, I've found combat math accurate, none of my combats have felt like either side was outclassed, and if I were a hair more ruthless I could have had PCs make Death Moves.

Honestly the one thing "saving" the players the most has been the swingyness of the D20. I'm often rolling <8, and very few T1 adversaries can do much there.

like I said, if you expect a "solo" to = "boss" and basically be "if the players aren't super on it they might all drop" you're going to be disappointed in most of the ones presented. If you're instead hoping for a single adversary that can put some serious hurt on in a way the players might not expect, but not push things hard towards a TPK I think they're pretty alright.

 

[aramis erak]

That's why I said "almost".

No, the mechanics are different, because they're different games. But what goes into making an aspect in Fate is basically the same as what goes into making an experience in Daggerheart.

to make my point more clear: That DH lacks negative uses is a huge difference in what is "good" mechanically in Fate vs DH that suggesying Fate aspect best practices is almost wasting people's time.

 

[Faolyn]

to make my point more clear: That DH lacks negative uses is a huge difference in what is "good" mechanically in Fate vs DH that suggesying Fate aspect best practices is almost wasting people's time.

<shrug> Take a look at some of the example experiences. Several of those are pretty double-edged. Even "Assassin of the Sapphire Syndicate" has some pretty strong negative connotations, since you're, you know, an assassin. I don't think it's a waste of time to read the Fate rules; I think it can be a useful perspective to take into consideration.

 

[Vael]

to make my point more clear: That DH lacks negative uses is a huge difference in what is "good" mechanically in Fate vs DH that suggesying Fate aspect best practices is almost wasting people's time.

I'm not against spending a Fear to "Compel" a PC experience. Oh that mayor's son was assassinated by the Sapphire Syndicate so best not let your affiliation get out. Tbh, I've been thinking of ways to spend Fear outside of combat and making pseudo compels seems like a good idea.