Daggermaster "Dev Critical / Rogue Weapon Mastery"

[Istar]

I have seen many reviews where these 2 Feats are rated poor or very bad for Rogues.

Can people explain why, as for a Daggermaster (Elven BS) with the 18 to 20 crit range I thought these would be very useful and exciting.

The 1/7 chance to Crit per round (poss. higher with the Elven re-roll and other rogue powers).

And then boom bang yiou have an extra 1-10 and 2-8 damage.
Quite a nice boost to the critical damage.
Throw in "Surprise Knockdown" and you also have them prone for possible minor action attacks.

Can someone explain why these feats are marked down so low (or even marked as the worst feats) even for a Daggermaster ?????

I am trying to get a grip on this issue.

 

[corwyn77]

Because, even for a DM, they amount to 5 damage every 7 attacks or about 2/3 hp per round. I don't consider that a good deal. Surprise Knockdown is only useful for a followup attack if you didn't have SA on that particular round.

I don't consider weapon focus that useful until Paragon for the same reason. Better to get a feat that allows for something you couldn't do before or even something (shudder) non-combat.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I say it depends on your other feat choices and on your power choices.
If you have many close and area attacks the chances of a crit rise and so does the usefulness of DevCrit and RWM.

Surprise Knockdown is a bad choice for daggermasters because their lvl 16 PP feature is nearly as good/better and at no cost.

 

[WalterKovacs]

In general, you have to compare them to other options.

Backstabber gives bonuses to the SA dice. At paragon you have 3, so it's effectively +3 dmg when you hit with SA. With weapon focus, you get +2 dmg per hit. With TWF, you get +1 dmg per hit [assuming you aren't making off hand attacks]. With Devestating critical, you do an average of 5.5 dmg when you crit, which is we'll say about 1/3 of your hits [assuming you hit on 11 but miss on a 10]. In that case you'll be doing less than Weapon Focus, although you will be doing more than TWF. Ditto with Rogue Weapon Mastery. [However this can fluctuate ... a Rogue with a dagger is likely going to have some of the highest to-hit modifiers out there. The easier it is to hit, the lower the value of the critical damage boosters compared to the ones that apply for every hit.]

If you are hitting on a 6, High Crit is equivalent to +1 dmg per hit. If you are hitting on a 9, it's about +1.25 dmg per hit, etc.

However if you have Knockout and Garotte Grip [and have a Wizard with sleep, etc], it may be worth it because, while you won't necessary be increasing your average damage per round, if you have frequent opportunities for coup de graces, ensuring you do as much damage as possible in those situations is a bit more important.

 

[MrAlgothi]

I am actually rather fond of the two feats, and they work especially well for Dagger Masters. Devastating Crit averages 5.5 per crit and Rogue Weapon Mastery at Paragon yields 5 or 7 if you have Meditation of the Blade active. Yes, that is rather low for a 1:6.66 chance to crit, but they can be improved by adding a Bloodiron Dagger.

The Property on the Bloodiron weapons allows the extra critical damage to be dealt again at the start of your next turn. Since the Devastating Crit feat and High Crit property are extra critical damage, this works. This effectively double the damage these feats do. Add a War Ring and you get some impressive Crit Damage, with a +3 BI Dagger, Dev Crit, RWM and a WarRing you deal 5d10+2d4 extra crit damage in Paragon, Average 32.5 damage *2. After a milestone activate the War Rings Daily power to deal 68 extra crit damage, which will deal 136 damage purely from extra critical damage.

Having very high crit damage also works nicely for the Knockout combo, making it easier to instantly kill a target via coup de'grace. Also there is the fact that Criticals are fun and rewarding to get, building for them just enchances that.

 

[Istar]

I say it depends on your other feat choices and on your power choices.
If you have many close and area attacks the chances of a crit rise and so does the usefulness of DevCrit and RWM.

Surprise Knockdown is a bad choice for daggermasters because their lvl 16 PP feature is nearly as good/better and at no cost.

DM Level 16 PP is a Knock Prone of some sort, have I missed something, I havent seen that anywhere ?

Yes I will have powers attacking multiple targets and things like Low Slash and other minor or free atatcks.

 

[Istar]

I am actually rather fond of the two feats, and they work especially well for Dagger Masters. Devastating Crit averages 5.5 per crit and Rogue Weapon Mastery at Paragon yields 5 or 7 if you have Meditation of the Blade active. Yes, that is rather low for a 1:6.66 chance to crit, but they can be improved by adding a Bloodiron Dagger.

The Property on the Bloodiron weapons allows the extra critical damage to be dealt again at the start of your next turn. Since the Devastating Crit feat and High Crit property are extra critical damage, this works. This effectively double the damage these feats do. Add a War Ring and you get some impressive Crit Damage, with a +3 BI Dagger, Dev Crit, RWM and a WarRing you deal 5d10+2d4 extra crit damage in Paragon, Average 32.5 damage *2. After a milestone activate the War Rings Daily power to deal 68 extra crit damage, which will deal 136 damage purely from extra critical damage.

Having very high crit damage also works nicely for the Knockout combo, making it easier to instantly kill a target via coup de'grace. Also there is the fact that Criticals are fun and rewarding to get, building for them just enchances that.

I like your thinking, and this is where I was heading, how these magic items work is this confirmed ??

 

[Black Knight Irios]

DM Level 16 PP is a Knock Prone of some sort, have I missed something, I havent seen that anywhere ?

Yes I will have powers attacking multiple targets and things like Low Slash and other minor or free atatcks.

No it is not knock prone but you gain CA against a target of a crit until the end of your next turn.

And Surprise Knockdown is more about CA than about the enemy being prone at least for the rogue. If your enemy acts after your trun he won't be probably prone when your next turn comes up, so no CA. So it is worse and you have to pay a feat for it.

 

[Istar]

Does a prone opponent get an OA on me if I move away from him ?

Keeping an opponent wihtout a move option 1/7 rounds sounds pretty good to me ?

 

[Smeelbo]

Activates on a critical powers like rechargeable encounter powers

As I understand it, as level rises, combats increase in length, but the number of encounter and daily powers each character has hardly rises at all. So what do you do once you've accumulated all the encounters and dailies you can use?

The longer combats last, the more attack rolls you make, and the more often you critical. I see critical activated powers as a semi-substitute for encounter powers: think of them as encounter powers that recharge on a crit.

While real encounter powers allow one to coordinate with your group, critical powers coordinate with each other, since they all share the same trigger.

So when no better options are available, might as well hand out the pain with your crits. Especially if you are Dual/Twin Striking, you will see crits, and they might as well be as awesome as you can make them.

Consider a critical hit with:

Surprise Knockdown: Knocked Prone
Devestating Critical: +1d10 damage
Triumphant Attack: -2 penalty to attack rolls and defenses (save ends)

An axe-wielding ranger with Sneak of Shadows could add Deadly Axe (+[W], probably D12), and with the stance Follow-up Blow, have 2-3 attacks per round, using just Twin Strike.

Magic weapons generally deal +1d6 to 1d12 per plus on a critical.

So as combats last more rounds, criticals become a more significant source of damage.

Smeelbo