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D&D 5E "Damage on a miss" poll.

Do you find the mechanic believable enough to keep?

  • I find the mechanic believable so keep it.

    Votes: 106 39.8%
  • I don't find the mechanic believable so scrap it.

    Votes: 121 45.5%
  • I don't care either way.

    Votes: 39 14.7%

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Even in these cases isn't there an important gap between (say) wanting to befriend the ogre, and actually doing so. Whether the mechanics used are reaction rolls or "free roleplaying", don't you have to actually play your PC's interaction with the ogre before you can find out whether or not your intention has been realised?
Yep!

Or are you saying that these are like @Hussar 's example of walking across the street - ie that everything else being equal, to declare the intention is to do it. So in forming the intention to have my PC say "Hello there, my good ogre!" I have also said that thing, and now we know that the gameworld fiction has changed (ie it includes the event which is my PC's saying of those words) and we can therefore learn how the gameworld changes further as a result of that.
It seems to me that the end result (ie., befriending the ogre, inadvertently making enemies of the ogre, etc.) is what you and/or Hussar are emphasizing as being signficant to the narrative. For me, just saying "Hello there, my good ogre!" can be just as a signficant contribution to the narrative regardless of the results turn out to be. Just playing it out and seeing what happens.

I think this is also relevant to damage on a miss. In many systems a player has to make a successful die roll to wear down an opponent of his/her PC. But there is no in-principle reason why this can't be made into the domain of player fiat, just like a Sleep spell. (Or say Cure Wounds spells compared to healing checks. Or Invisibiity compared to stealth checks.)
I don't really see it that way. I see a Sleep spell as external agency beyond the wizard, not as player fiat. Casting the sleep spell is treated just like you would turn on the light switch and get light, or buy a fruit at the grocery store and not know how it was cultivated exactly. You don't know fully how it works. It just does, like magic.
 

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For me, just saying "Hello there, my good ogre!" can be just as a signficant contribution to the narrative regardless of the results turn out to be. Just playing it out and seeing what happens.
OK, that's become clearer to me.

Out of curiosity, did you start playing with 2nd ed AD&D? I ask because this seems a particularly 2nd ed-ish approach to the game. (But not confined to that edition, obviously.)
 

Really? If I were fencing with someone, I'd categorize parried blows as "misses". I think it would be pretty intuitive to describe blows that bounce harmlessly off of someone's armor the same way.

Well, that's not what people do. Hits that bounce off armour are described as hits that bounce off armour, not misses. Check historical accounts from World War Two anti-tank gunners, or the forum for World of Tanks, or various other games, and you'll find plenty of examples. Describing something that bounces off the armour as a miss is peculiar to D&D.
 

Keeping an open mind to try and understand something, is not the same as keeping an open mind to BELIEVE in that something. I've never found that understanding forces one to accept and believe in that thing.
The question is really one of intent. The damage on a miss principle was deconstructed and criticized by quite a few people in several different ways in both of these threads. All of those people were coming at it from different perspectives.

Conversely, the blanket response has been to do anything but address those criticisms. It's been a flurry of ad hominem attacks (this open minded thing is just the latest of several); none of which are pertinent or even valid. The real question is, does anyone have something to say about the value of the damage on a miss mechanic? It seems to me like just arguing for the sake of arguing.

This statement is incompatible with you declaring that you will not change your way of thinking to attempt to understand something. That's a declaration that your mind is not pretty open.
Shades of gray. My mind is open enough to accept that an attack roll could mean several different things. Whatever meaning you're getting at is not one of them.

You first. You said you wouldn't have to explain it to anyone - that was you speaking for everyone. Once you opened the door to speaking on behalf of everyone, it's fair for me to reply in like manner.
Fair, but not accurate.

Not sure why you said this, but as you can see from even a glance at my username information, I've been here a long, long time. Longer than you, in fact.
As I understand it, the start dates were changed during the board upheavals. I have no idea which of us has actually been around longer. But again, this is irrelevant, and leads me to wonder why you feel the need to go there.

IF you want to understand, then yes you should have to change your way of thinking if that's what's necessary to reach understanding. That's not the same as you agreeing, or adopting that viewpoint. But I've found any new rules system will require, at some point, me to change my way of thinking about the game to understand something about some new kind of rule. I don't see any harm in that, or why it would be a negative thing to "have to" change ones way of thinking about the game to understand a new rule.
I didn't have to change my way of thinking to understand the advantage rule. It's new and interesting, but doesn't require reinventing the wheel. I don't think I'm setting a very high bar here.
 

Someone can explain to me why they like something, without persuading me to like it.
The question is not whether you can persuade me to like it. The question is whether you can persuade me that other people like it. At the moment, I see two large threads full of people who hate damage on a miss for quite a diverse variety of reasons, and people who like calling that first group of people names.

But they have given genuine explanations of their like for it.
I don't believe that. I haven't heard anything that would suggest to me that even its promoters would really prefer the damage on a miss over a simple bump to attack or damage, both of which also model relentless attacking and reduce the chance of an ineffectual turn, without all this madness.

First, it's actually not true that "guarantee of effectivenss" is not within the scope of PC abilituies. A pre-3E wizard, for instance, has a guarantee of effectiveness in putting creatures weaker than ogres to sleep, at least 1x/day. And the latest iteration of Next also bring back Sleep without a saving throw.
As always, using magic as an example is hardly fair, but misses the point anyway. There are a variety of reasons a spell might fail or be nullified, and Sleep generally has pretty restrictive conditions, so it's not a guarantee outside of those conditions. It probably isn't the wisest approach to design to design a direct attack spell that doesn't involve a d20 roll (though there might be exceptions), but it isn't equivalent.

For one thing, even in these cases, it's a "guarantee of effectiveness for a few seconds if you have the right spell memorized", which is not a guarantee in my book. The player who doesn't like a turn passing ineffectually is still going to find that happening on many of his turns. For another, "effectiveness" is somewhat subjective. Damage is clearly a lasting effect, but sleep is transient, and sleep spells vary with regards to the conditions for waking up.

But "infallability" is not a relevant concept here. Being able to do STR damage minimum per round is not infallability.
Sure it is. If one simply opens one's mind enough to see "failure" as "attacking, but dealing no damage", then an ability that prevents this outcome from occurring is infallibility.

In other words, Ahnehnois - as far as I can tell - is asserting that the only discussion that is on topic is whether one thinks it is desirable, in the game, for a fighter to be able to inflict physical injury with a sword without that sword having to make contact with the target of the attack.

(I think Ahnehnois also thinks that the answer to this question, self-evidently, is "no", although he has not explained how, under such constraints, the game makes room for possibilities like an enemy falling over, and suffering injury from the fall, as a result of being pressed to avoid an assailant's attacks.)
I think it goes deeper than that. The question is, how in a game where rolling equal to or higher than a DC is a success and rolling lower than the DC is a failure (I of course can't copy that text either), should there be one specific character ability that redefines failure on one of the most common and important rolls you make to be a qualified success?

Which applies to even things like an enemy falling. After all, one might narrate the damage from a successful attack in that way, but we're not talking about a success. We're talking about a fighter who has tried to engage the action resolution mechanics to perform a task (attack the opponent), and who has definitionally failed. The attack roll, as others are noting in an unrelated tangent, happens first; how and why damage is or is not dealt is narrated afterwards.
 

I think it goes deeper than that. The question is, how in a game where rolling equal to or higher than a DC is a success and rolling lower than the DC is a failure (I of course can't copy that text either), should there be one specific character ability that redefines failure on one of the most common and important rolls you make to be a qualified success?
Damn old mechanic... already does that
Apparently when I succeeded on may saving throw I successfully saved but died in fire anyway? doesn't that already establish successes/failures are relative?
 
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Well, that's not what people do. Hits that bounce off armour are described as hits that bounce off armour, not misses. Check historical accounts from World War Two anti-tank gunners, or the forum for World of Tanks, or various other games, and you'll find plenty of examples. Describing something that bounces off the armour as a miss is peculiar to D&D.
That's one example. Let's try another.

Say I have some friends who like fencing. I decide to pick up a rapier and try it out. I make one thrust and my sword is parried instantly. Do I go over to the crowd and start high-fiving people and saying "I hit him!"? Probably not.

Or let's say we remake the first Star Wars movie, and Luke is flying through the trenches, and he has a brain fart and shoots his missiles a half second too early and they explode on the surface instead of penetrating the convenient vent and starting a chain reaction that destroys the death star. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a miss.
 

Damn old mechanic... already does that
Apparently when I succeeded on may saving throw I successfully saved but died in fire anyway? doesn't that already establish successes are relative?
Depends on how you define success. In this case, success is diving for cover and taking less damage. Depending on conditions (damage and hp and resistances), survival may or may not be a possible outcome. This happens all the time. Success doesn't necessarily mean getting what you want; sometimes that's impossible.

Conversely, success or failure on an attack roll is pretty clearly defined already, and this ability is quite radically redefining it.
 

Out of curiosity, did you start playing with 2nd ed AD&D? I ask because this seems a particularly 2nd ed-ish approach to the game. (But not confined to that edition, obviously.)
Sure, I did play a lot of AD&D, although I really started with 1e, Basic and Expert. The description of D&D Next as "AD&D feel with modern rules" was a pretty exciting thought. Funny how in business I can be very results-oriented but not in games; different agendas I suppose of "winning" in real-life because we only have one life vs the luxury of relishing the means in games because it's just a game. In that sense, I imagine I'm with dmgorgon about appreciating mechanics that support character intentions/player declared actions as smoothly as possible. (This excludes BTW fiddly mechanics that are "realistic" but boring and un-fun for practical gaming purposes).
 

Depends on how you define success.
Attacks and defenses are just the same coin you cant really make one semi- and then pretend the other can't be that is playing head games.

The real difference is one is martial the other mage, and martial types cant have nice things. In this case reliably threatening attacks.
 

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