D&D 5E Damage on a missed attack roll

[Tony Vargas]

to me 5 abandoned the DM to his own devices about what might be accomplished via skill and failed to create shared expectations for the players and DM both.

Well, "failed" implies trying to create such expectations in players. 5e set out to Empower DMs and that meant (among many other things) leaving players wondering what they could do with a check, skill, etc, so they'd have to ask the DM, it succeeded.
Aside from that, yeah.

Even functions like how far you can jump is so unheroic scaled your average football player can do as well as a 20 strength character does unless you provide system intervention. (then who knows)

An issue in every edition, really.

 

[Garthanos]

Well, "failed" implies trying to create such expectations in players.

To me its part of the game systems fundamental job to help create shared expectations between those who play it so yeh I am sticking with failed.

Failed to provide tools beyond wing it!!!!

 

[Garthanos]

An issue in every edition, really.

5e numbers kind of close if you are making sure martial characters are as completely pedestrian as possible and maybe if they had descent advancement and heroic bursts were defined. (yes I know the monk kind of can but that is apparently magic or something so we can put some guidance on that)

 

[Ashrym]

to me 5 abandoned the DM to his own devices about what might be accomplished via skill and failed to create shared expectations for the players and DM both

Abandonded. Empowered. Tomato tomato lol. It's one of those things where both are good but either infringes on the other.

 

[Garthanos]

Abandonded. Empowered. Tomato tomato lol. It's one of those things where both are good but either infringes on the other.

Given that glowing description in the 5e pdf Tony quoted a while back of the role of magic apparently the shared expectation is perhaps meant to be a caster will do it they can do everything. It read a bit like you are a fool making life 10x harder if you don't have a caster.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Given that glowing description in the 5e pdf Tony quoted a while back of the role of magic apparently the shared expectation is perhaps meant to be a caster will do it they can do everything. It read a bit like you are a fool making life 10x harder if you don't have a caster.

I suppose it's worth nothing that, while checks are mostly open-ended and undefined, leaving the DM virtual carte blanche to rule as he likes (and those that are explicit are usually pretty mundane), spells are fairly directive in what they do. The player pushes a button, the DM is mostly obliged to narrate what the corresponding spell description says happens.
Mostly.

So shared expectations when it comes to what happens when you cast a spell, are established by 5e. FWIW.

(I think Hussar or Manbearcat or somebody else around here smarter than me - I know, that doesn't narrow it down much - said something about casters and non-casters "playing two different games." I suppose that's part of it.)

 

[Garthanos]

(I think Hussar or Manbearcat or somebody else around here smarter than me - I know, that doesn't narrow it down much - said something about casters and non-casters "playing two different games." I suppose that's part of it.)

See it looks like casters have the same amount of proficiency with skills to use and wing it with as well as their I can do this now passes. What If they had to put skills into spell schools or similar I have to train in these 2 magical skills which are really just access passes for the learning spells and not of much value outside of that.

BA even has people deciding its wrong to let rogues have expertise because it looks out of sync or some such. I am thinking to challenge one of them you have to have obstacles completely out of reach of everyone else might be the complaint or something. But what better performances might I shoot for ... shrug. wave your hands in the air. How much are we cramming in session zero?

 

[Garthanos]

I think Hussar or Manbearcat or somebody else around here smarter than me

to express it more positively well that doesn't mean you are all that short of company

 

[Garthanos]

I am thinking to challenge one of them you have to have obstacles completely out of reach of everyone else might be the complaint or something.

I think you need better level gated defined stunts which they can weigh in against so its not pass or fail as much as see you can reliably do more you dont have to compete against a minimalist thing and you can exert like the monk does with ki to do more.

 

[Tony Vargas]

See it looks like casters have the same amount of proficiency with skills to use and wing it with as well as their I can do this now passes. What If they had to put skills into spell schools or similar I have to train in these 2 magical skills which are really just access passes for the learning spells and not of much value outside of that.

I've seen systems go there. GURPS most dramatically.