Dead in a Blade Barrier, what happens to the stuff?

[jlhorner1974]

Just my 2 cents worth...

As the rules are written, Blade Barrier is a spell produces whirling magic blades that do damage. Although this is similar to an attack with a magic weapon, Blade Barrier is still a spell and counts as a magical attack. Therefore, Stoneskin does not protect against Blade Barrier. (If someone wanted to houserule it otherwise, I wouldn't have a problem with it since the effects are logically very similar.)

Allowing Stoneskin to work though opens up a new can of worms, as it basically means that DR is effective against a Blade Barrier. Does the Blade Barrier do Xd6 damage in one attack or 1 damage from Xd6 blades? (The latter allows a high level barb to sit in a blade barrier forever and take no damage!!) What magical "plus" do the blades have in terms of beating DR?

Personally, I just think Stoneskin shouldn't work against a Blade Barrier. It solves all these nasty problems.


As for whether the blade barrier affects items, here is the entire spell description from the SRD:

Blade Barrier
Evocation
Level: Clr 6, Good 6, War 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Spinning disk of blades, up to
30-ft. radius
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Reflex negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell creates a spinning disk of blades. These whirl around a central point, creating an immobile, circular barrier. Any creature passing through the blade barrier takes 1d6 points of slashing damage per caster level (maximum 20d6). The plane of rotation of the blades can be horizontal, vertical, or slanted.
Creatures within the blade barrier when it is invoked take the damage as well. They can negate the damage with a successful Reflex saving throw, provided they can and do physically leave the area of the blades by the shortest possible route. Once the barrier is in place, anything entering or passing through the blades automatically takes damage.
A blade barrier serves as one-half cover (+4 AC) for anyone beyond it.


The funny thing is that the spell description only specifically states what happens to CREATURES in the area of effect. It does not specify what happens to items, which opens up some leeway in interpreting what happens to items.

One could argue that the spell does not mention items so items are unaffected or that the blade barrier has Xd6 blades hit the item per round, but each only does 1 damage, which hardness would easily negate, but that seems illogical no matter how you look at it.

Similarly, I think that all magical items destroyed with no save is a bit harsh.

I could buy an argument (from a rules perspective) that the intent of Blade Barrier is that a save is always granted, but anyone who does not leave the area of effect using the shortest possible path is considered to automatically fail their save. If you look at it this way, one magic item would be destroyed, using the DMG rules, just as if the character rolled a 1 on the save.

I think it would make more sense logically that mundane items automatically fail their saving throw and are quickly destroyed (unless they have fantastic hardness). I would grant magical items ONE saving throw because of their nature. If the saving throw is successful, the item is too strong to be damaged by the blades (the whirling blades simply deflect off of it harmlessly). If the save fails, the item is destroyed by the blades. For equipment with plusses, the plus of course adds to the save, making higher quality items less likely to be destroyed, which makes sense too.

 

[Stalker0]

Nothing gets a saving throw if the spell doesn't allow it. What would the saving throw be for throwing an item off a cliff? If a person doesn't get a save to avoid the damage, why would an item?
Blade Barrier doesn't allow a saving throw unless you started inside the field AND tried to leave immediately. Neither of those apply here. Even if you say it started inside the disk, I'd deny the saving throw for the same reason the DMG says you deny someone a Reflex save against Fireballs if there's nothing to duck behind: it just doesn't apply in that particular situation. Since the item has no way to dodge the blades or leave the field, no saving throw.

Regardless, even if it gets a saving throw (and it doesn't), you'd still fail eventually. The outcome of this scenario really depends on your opinion of whether items are affected by this spell at all.

If items aren't affected, then they'll all be fine. The corpse's clothing will be untouched, the blades going around him without harming his now-deceased body. Personally this sounds ridiculous to me, but it's easily interpreted this way under the rules. If I Hold a person inside a Blade Barrier they'd take just enough damage to die (then the blades would leave them alone because they're no longer a creature), but a statue of a person won't even be scratched?

If items ARE affected, they're pretty much all toast. Blade Barrier does a minimum of 11d6 damage per turn for 1100 turns. Steel has harness 10. That means even if you roll minimum damage every turn, the item is destroyed after a while. A magical item has higher hardness and can take more damage, but it'll still be destroyed in the long run.

You could argue that it's like Sunder, and therefore you have to beat the enhancement bonus. Is a Blade Barrier mundane slashing (in which case any DR helps against it) or is it inherently magical slashing (bypassing any DR that isn't X/-)? Well, is it stopped by Stoneskin in your campaign? If so, then magical items will survive thanks to their enhancement bonuses. If not, they're destroyed.

Alright guys, this is getting WAY too complicated. Spatz, this has been posted several times in the thread already, I will post once again.

DMG pg. 176.
Damaging Magic items
Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them-even against attacks from which a mundane item would normally get no chance to save.

Right there, your right normal items don't get saves. But magic items do. How often? Always. But are there situations when they won't? No, always. Why do they get saving throws? Because there magic. That's it, end of discussion. I know I'm being short, but everyone seems to be ignoring this, and its not ambiguous.

Second, blade barrier is not a series of weapons, its a magical attack. Period. Its a spell you treat it as a spell. No DR, no extra considerations. Just treat it like a spell.

Again, I apologize for being angry, but its not like there's a really ambiguous piece of ruling here, it seems very clear cut.

 

[jlhorner1974]

Stalker0 is right, there really is no other reasonable interepretion of the rule he quoted.

For those that don't have DMG handy, the appropriate link to the rule he quotes in the d20 SRD is:

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/srdmagicitems.rtf


So the correct rulings are:

1. Blade Barrier is a spell. Stoneskin, like all other forms of DR, does not work against spells.

2. When the dying/dead fighter falls onto the blade barrier at ground level, neither he nor his mundane items get saves and take full damage each round from the blade barrier (and get shredded pretty quickly). All of his magical items though get the standard magical item save of 2 + (Item's caster level / 2), rounded down (except for intelligent magical items, which make Will saves using their Wisdom score). Magical items making their saves are unhurt. Those that fail take damage each round in the blade barrier and will get shredded in short order.

 

[0-hr]

Magical items making their saves are unhurt. Those that fail take damage each round in the blade barrier and will get shredded in short order.

How do you know it is a save for no damage instead of save for half? You don't, because the rules don't say what to do when no save is allowed, because even magic items don't get a save when none is allowed.

That rule that you quote is simply a restatement of the rule listed in srdbreakingitemsattackingobjects.htm:

Unattended nonmagical items never make
saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving
throws, so they always are affected by (for instance) a
disintegrate spell. An item attended by a combatant (being
grasped, touched, or worn) receives a saving throw just as if the
combatant herself were making the saving throw.

Magic items always get saving throws. A
magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal
to 2 + one-half its caster level. Attended magic items either
make saving throws as their owner or use their own saving throws,
whichever are better.

You'll notice that both places this rule comes up it is talking about magic items compared to mundane items (which don't get saves). In neither place is it talking about magic items vs spells that don't allow saves.

 

[Stalker0]

How do you know it is a save for no damage instead of save for half? You don't, because the rules don't say what to do when no save is allowed, because even magic items don't get a save when none is allowed.

That rule that you quote is simply a restatement of the rule listed in srdbreakingitemsattackingobjects.htm:



You'll notice that both places this rule comes up it is talking about magic items compared to mundane items (which don't get saves). In neither place is it talking about magic items vs spells that don't allow saves.

Alright, I'm posting it again. (emphasis mine)

pg. 176 DMG
Damaging Magic Items
Magic Items should ALWAYS get a saving throw against SPELLS that MIGHT DEAL DAMAGE TO THEM-even against attacks from which a mundane item would normally get no chance to save.


Ki, what about that quote is in anyway ambiguous? Situation, there is a spell that might do damage to a magic item. Answer, the magic item ALWAYS gets a saving throw against SPELLS that might deal damage to them. It does not matter what spell it is.


Now I do agree with you that the half damage part is ambiguous. The logic I would use, is that since a magic item's saves are all equal for the most part. I would go with no damage on successful save, because I could just as easily say the sword's fortitude save allows it to withstand the damage while a reflex save had it knocked away. But that's not official, and this topic I don't mind looking into further.

 

[jlhorner1974]

Yes, the half or none is ambiguous, but think about it for a second:

For all but the very wimpiest damage causing spells, even half damage is way more than enough to destroy most magic items. (Remember, as per the SRD "Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as normal items of the same type.")

If magic item saving throws behave like that, what's the point of having them at all?

I think that the only thing that makes sense is that magic items take no damage on a successful save.

 

[0-hr]

Yes, if you say the world "ALWAYS" really loud, and if you stop before the second half of the sentence, and if you make up a house rule about the effects of the save, then your interpretation makes the most sense.

 

[jlhorner1974]

Ki Ryn,

If you feel Stalker0 is wrong, how are you interpreting the situation? The language in the DMG that Stalker0 quotes makes it seem pretty clear that magic items get a save against Blade Barrier.

Stalker0 already conceded that what happens when an item does save is ambiguous, but as I said above, I don't see a point in allowing a magic item save for half instead of none because even half is enough to destroy the item in most cases.

To be fair to you, the all-caps words in Stalker0's post were probably unnecessary, but your sharp criticism of his interpretation without any justification of your own was just as bad.

You're always entitled to your opinion. If you disagree with his interpretation, that's fine, but what's your reasoning?

 

[Lord Thurham]

Thank you everyone for your comments, it's been real helpful in the research.

So far, here's what I've come to the conclusion of:

The unattended magical items do get a saving throw at 2+(1/2 caster level) each round.

Blade Barrier is a magical attack (even though the effects are blades) So Sunder weapon does not apply to this.

Blade Barrier is practically unstoppable! Other than the usual Dispel Magic, Magic Resistance and Counterspell(s).

Bottom line, the sword and ring gets a +12 saving throw vs the Blade Barrier each round. If they fail, they are destroyed.

LT

 

[0-hr]

Ki Ryn,

If you feel Stalker0 is wrong, how are you interpreting the situation?

I'm interpreting it like this:

If a spell allows a save, then a magic item (even if unattended) gets a saving throw. Note that a magic item gets a save in this situation even though a mundane item would not.

That looks like the most reasonable interpretation given the context and the problems that arise otherwise. You are welcome to your own opinion.