D&D 5E Dealing with a trouble player and a major blow up

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

And, when you think of it, what you said was kind of insulting. "You aren't good," you told him? In essence you told him he wasn't a good person! And you are somehow *surprised* that he got upset? You don't know what will set him off?

Dude, insults will set people off.

Well, I was talking in character during almost the entire conversation. When I said my opinion on killing off world leaders, I was speaking from the point of view of my CG aligned D&D character. But the entire time I was saying "I would certainly kill the leader of a city to make the world a better place". I figured that went without saying since the entire conversation was about an adventure we played and started because he didn't see why any character would go on the adventure.

Yes, I realized AFTER he got angry that he assumed I was talking about him instead of his character. I was just about to say "Whoa, you got very angry there and I'm not sure why. Did you think I was talking about you instead of your character?" It was pretty much going to be the next thing I said. But he kept ranting and wouldn't give me a chance to speak and ended his rant with running into his room, slamming the door, and kicking me out. Even then, I assumed he'd calm down in a couple of minutes and come out of his room and change his mind. But before we could even wait for that to happen his girlfriend kicked us out.

Though, I honestly don't think it would matter if I was talking about his character instead of him. I think he is roleplaying himself. So, he 100% agrees with the morality of his character that is CN bordering on evil.

So, it was impossible for me to have the discussion with him WITHOUT making him angry. Because his point was that he(in real life) didn't understand the reasoning or morality of anyone who would choose to go on this adventure willingly. I was trying to explain why someone might possibly want to go on the adventure. But I realized later that he didn't actually want an explanation like I thought he did. He just wanted his morals to be "right" and to have everyone else agree with them.

 

[billd91]

I think you need to just get away from him already. He may be psychotic, but if you're accurate in your description, you seem to keep poking the bear without understanding how or when to de-escalate the situation.

 

[77IM]

Ahah! I may have found your problem!

I really want to play that adventure and I think without this group, I won't have the chance.

You seem to be under some delusion that these are the only people in your area who want to play D&D with you. They're not! There are plenty of cool people in your area who want to play D&D with you. Get your courage up and go find some! If you need help or ideas, here is a book to get you started: https://gumroad.com/l/howtofindgamers

Seriously, I don't care if you live in Ice Station Zebra, it can't possibly be the case that the ONLY way for you to play D&D is to include this man-child who is such a struggle for you to get along with. You need to find just ONE or TWO more people for your group and it won't be that hard. Just do it.

 

[Jacob Marley]

I hoped I wouldn't necro this thread again. But since there were so many people here who showed an interest in my problems, I felt obligated to update you all on the situation.

Since some people in this thread felt I didn't have the right to complain about this issue if it happened again due to my choice, I'd like to state for the record that it isn't so much complaining as that people here were interested and might want to know the details.

Essentially, here's what happened. Everything went back to normal. I continued playing our home game with the 2 people in question, we started running PotA with a new DM. They continued coming to our Adventurer's League games on Tuesdays.

Until last Sunday. We cancelled our normal PotA game because our DM cancelled on us. My girlfriend volunteered to Slot 0(which is to say, run the adventure in private for the DMs so they get a chance to play before the public game on Tuesday). This was at their house. So, it was my girlfriend, the person in question, his girlfriend, and one other guy. We were all sitting around making up characters since the new adventure was for 1st and 2nd level characters only. I made up a Lawful Good Cleric of Torm. I was lamenting that, in typical fashion, his girlfriend had made up a LE Paladin of Lolth for the campaign and the other two characters were Neutral alignments heavily focusing on being selfish. I didn't want to be the only good character again. I brought up the fact that there were maybe 4 good aligned characters among the 40 or so characters that had been created by all the players who showed up regularly. We also had a player leave and never come back because he felt that the atmosphere at our public games was "too dark" for his taste. The player in question got super defensive, saying he has never played a "dark" character or evil character.

So, we got to talking about alignments and about the behavior of the players in our Tuesday Adventurer's League games. One thing let to another and we started discussing a D&D Expeditions adventure from a couple of weeks ago (DDEX2-14, for those who might have played it). In the adventure, the head of the Wizard's guild of Mulmaster shows up and asks you to overthrow the High Blade(who is the ruler) of Mulmaster. Turns out the High Blade had betrayed the old High Blade a long time ago and trapped him in a gem. The gem was lost but it was found recently and the old High Blade was free now and wanted to take his rightful place back on the throne. We were told that the old High Blade was a better guy than the current one. The current High Blade has huge ties to the church of Bane(God of Tyrants). The church became much more powerful with the new High Blade in charge.

So, the guy in question says that he thought the adventure was stupid. There was no reason for any right thinking person to go on the mission. The city is extremely evil and corrupt and it certainly isn't up to adventurers to fix it. That city politics was "above the pay grade" of adventurers and wasn't an appropriate mission. I said that I disagreed and that NOTHING was above the pay grade of adventurers. If there were gods causing problems, we'd find them and kill them as well...or at least, we'd try.

He started asking me "Really? You think its fine to decide you don't like a government and remove it from power simply because you disagree with them?" and I was telling him "Yes, I'm an adventurer. Part of being an adventurer is that you believe you are always right and you have the ability to impose your will on most other people due to being more powerful than them. For good or ill. You have the power to depose governments and if those governments are evil and corrupt and you are good aligned, you almost have a moral obligation to use that power to remove them from power."

He just kept telling me that as far as he knew, the new guy would be just as evil as the current one. That nothing he did mattered in the slightest and Mulmaster was a horrible place filled with horrible people and that any good aligned person should leave town and never come back. Attempting to save it was just stupid.

I said that anything you could do to save the city was an act that a real good aligned person should be considering. Because being good means constantly striving for the best way to help everyone even if its hard...or even downright impossible. That if there was an even minor chance the new guy was better than the one one, that we should WANT to help any way we can.

He said that he didn't understand that concept at all. I said "That's because you aren't good."

That's when his face became a mask of rage. He said "Really? You think you know better than the ruler of a country? You think you can just go around murdering world leaders because you disagree with them and you think murdering them makes you GOOD? Why would murder ever be good? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard." Pretty much ever word was louder than the one before it.

"I said, yes. Murdering evil people makes you good. That's just the way it works. That if my good character could murder all the evil deities in order to remove all their evil influence from the world forever, he'd do it."

Then he said "SERIOUSLY!?!? I...I...that's....wow...you really think that you're better than everyone else and your opinion matters more than anyone else's? That's it. I don't even want you in my house." Then he ran into his room, slammed the door. Then yelled through the door "Oh, and by the way, as for Tuesdays, I'm never coming back there again!"

Then I looked at his girlfriend with shock. I was expecting her to say "Let's just play without him for now". But she said "I think you all need to leave. I'll see you all next Sunday."

I said "Well, that..."

Then she snapped at me that I had to shut up right now before she got angry at me too. I said "I was going to say "Well, that seems to be a bad way to leave things off". She said "Oh....well, get out of our house. I'll see you on Sunday."

My girlfriend is extremely angry over the situation. She cancelled all her plans that day to run the game for us and we never even played.

They were true to their word and neither of them showed up on Tuesday.

I now have to decide if its worth it for me to attend the Sunday game. Not showing up will pretty much end the Sunday game. My roommate would stop going(not out of solidarity with me but because without getting a ride he'll be too lazy to go), leaving the average number of players who show up as 2. The guy in question and his girlfriend already began making plans with us to attend GenCon next year and I think if I don't show up, they'll cancel on us. In fact, it's likely I'll never see either of them again.

I'm not even sure what I expect to happen or what I WANT to happen. I want to keep playing the game. I'm having fun with it. His girlfriend was thinking of running Out of the Abyss for us, possibly starting this Sunday. I really want to play that adventure and I think without this group, I won't have the chance.

I think I'd once again be willing to forgive this outburst if I got an apology. But I know I won't get one unless I explicitly ask for one. And even then, there's about an 80% chance that asking for one will cause him to fly into another rage because he feels he's right. My plan right now is to call his girlfriend tonight and say "I'd like an apology from him and a promise this won't happen again if you want me to come back to the game." I have this feeling that by now they'll have rationalized that they were completely in the right and that I provoked them to kick me out of their house.

Well, I was talking in character during almost the entire conversation. When I said my opinion on killing off world leaders, I was speaking from the point of view of my CG aligned D&D character. But the entire time I was saying "I would certainly kill the leader of a city to make the world a better place". I figured that went without saying since the entire conversation was about an adventure we played and started because he didn't see why any character would go on the adventure.

Yes, I realized AFTER he got angry that he assumed I was talking about him instead of his character. I was just about to say "Whoa, you got very angry there and I'm not sure why. Did you think I was talking about you instead of your character?" It was pretty much going to be the next thing I said. But he kept ranting and wouldn't give me a chance to speak and ended his rant with running into his room, slamming the door, and kicking me out. Even then, I assumed he'd calm down in a couple of minutes and come out of his room and change his mind. But before we could even wait for that to happen his girlfriend kicked us out.

Though, I honestly don't think it would matter if I was talking about his character instead of him. I think he is roleplaying himself. So, he 100% agrees with the morality of his character that is CN bordering on evil.

So, it was impossible for me to have the discussion with him WITHOUT making him angry. Because his point was that he(in real life) didn't understand the reasoning or morality of anyone who would choose to go on this adventure willingly. I was trying to explain why someone might possibly want to go on the adventure. But I realized later that he didn't actually want an explanation like I thought he did. He just wanted his morals to be "right" and to have everyone else agree with them.

The context of post #270 strongly implies that this conversation was occurring out-of-character. Did you indicate that you were speaking from the point-of-view of a character you played weeks ago? How was he to know that? You were not being clear. It is you who owes him (and his girlfriend and the other players) an apology.

I run a game in which ethics, morality and politics are paramount. My players can get into very heated conversations. But they are always crystal clear about who is talking. It appears that you seamlessly jumped from your point-of-view to that of your character's, without those at the table knowing. That's the problem you need to own.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Mate. You have a toxic relationship with these people (and vice-versa).
Life is short. Cut ties, feel sad, find other people, feel better. Move on. For the sake of all concerned.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

You should never confuse half-baked game mechanics with an actual moral sense.

The D&D alignment system is for amusement only.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

The context of post #270 strongly implies that this conversation was occurring out-of-character. Did you indicate that you were speaking from the point-of-view of a character you played weeks ago? How was he to know that? You were not being clear. It is you who owes him (and his girlfriend and the other players) an apology.

I run a game in which ethics, morality and politics are paramount. My players can get into very heated conversations. But they are always crystal clear about who is talking. It appears that you seamlessly jumped from your point-of-view to that of your character's, without those at the table knowing. That's the problem you need to own.

My point of view pretty much IS my characters point of view with some slight differences. However, it was clear from context that I was discussing ethics in D&D, not in real life. I wouldn't argue real life ethics almost ever. No one can agree on ethics so it's pointless to debate it.

I wish I could give you the entire 30 minute long conversation for context, but the truth is, I don't remember 100% of everything said in the conversation. I just know the question that started it was "I found my character had no reason to go on this adventure and no one in their right mind would want to overthrow a government." And I said "well, the woman in charge is pretty evil and as a good character I felt it was good to get rid of her." And he said "you'd murder the leader of a city just because they were evil?" And I said "Yes, I'd murder anyone who was evil if I could get away with it and I thought it would make the world a better place." And from that point onward I referred to myself in the first person for the whole conversation.

But even if I screwed up the context and called him "not good", that's small. I've had 3 hour long conversations on real life morality that I got sucked in that weren't about D&D at all. In those conversations I was called downright Evil by one of my coworkers. Repeatedly. I'm still friends with that guy and I didn't storm out of the room or slam any doors. Because sometimes arguments get a little personal but you try not to take it the wrong way or lose your temper.

In previous alignment discussions, I've had a bunch of my friends admit to being "Neutral" in real life considering how hard it is to live up to the D&D concept of "Good" in real life. I never considered "Not Good" to be an insult. The vast majority of people in real life are "not good".

What it comes down to is that it was clear to me that I was speaking in character. It was clear to my girlfriend who was there and even before I said anything about this afterwards said "I think the problem is that he thought you were talking about him rather than his character. It was clear to me but I think he didn't understand."

And whether or not I mildly insulted him certainly was no excuse to fly off the handle. He could have said "Wow, that was insulting." and I would have apologized for insulting him and moved on. Instead he ended the conversation in a way that left no room for anyone to disagree with him, ruined everyone's day and made all games we play in the future super awkward. I pretty much don't care what I said to him, nothing warrants that response apart from some seriously horrible behavior.

Edit: besides, he insulted me pretty badly at the beginning with "No one in their right mind would want to go on this adventure". I liked the adventure. It was a lot of fun an I Really did want to go on the adventure. Thus implying I'm not in my right mind.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Edit: besides, he insulted me pretty badly at the beginning with "No one in their right mind would want to go on this adventure". I liked the adventure. It was a lot of fun an I Really did want to go on the adventure. Thus implying I'm not in my right mind.

As you continue your relationship with this individual despite all warnings and advice, you prove to the entire world that you are in fact, not in your right mind.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Stop it.
Stop picking at this scab.
All you are doing is making an ugly scar.
You know, chocolate is lovely. Turkey is also lovely. But chocolate-covered turkey...not so much.
In other words, you guys just don't go together well. The fact they always make non-good aligned characters and you seem to do the opposite speaks volumes about your different expectations for a game.
And it is just a game.
It's really not worth this much angst and worry, anger and indignation.
As a wise lady once said, "ain't nobody got time fo' that".
Stop it. Walk away. And breathe.
Continuing to use EN World (or any other public niche-interest site about this hobby, for that matter) as your diary, seeking confirmation and detailing your toxic eggshell-walking relationship with this individual is NOT HEALTHY for you and potentially PROVOCATIVE if the guy should ever come across all this stuff. Because, Google.
Seriously, please, just button your lip, walk away, and consider this part of your life over, like a set of rapids you had to negotiate, that dunked you under a few times, but is now done with and ahead of you there's a stretch of river you've yet to explore.
Paddle on.