Dear Hasbro: about those minis

[kenobi65]

Have modules suddenly become profitable? Or are WOTC producing them becasue they must, as without them its hard to grow the brand if new players have no adventures to actually play once they've picked up a PHB, DMG and MM?

I think that's it. The number of 3rd-party publishers who are making adventures has shrunk dramatically from the early 3E period (though, IMO, those that are left are generally putting out better-quality products).

And, WotC also appears to be using at least some of the modules (the Fantastic Locations ones) as a way to cross-sell the miniatures line, since those modules contain battle maps and suggested minis.

 

[ssampier]

QFT - But hey, like anybody who disagrees is actually going to take this into consideration...

Chainmail we hardly knew you.

Does anyone know if Battlesystem was successful?

 

[kenobi65]

Does anyone know if Battlesystem was successful?

I don't think it was particularly so, though I could be wrong. Recall that the second edition of that game was fundamentally just rules; TSR didn't make specific minis for it.

 

[Shadowslayer]

And, WotC also appears to be using at least some of the modules (the Fantastic Locations ones) as a way to cross-sell the miniatures line, since those modules contain battle maps and suggested minis.

Agreed. But for what it's worth, the latest one, Frostfell Rift, doesn't have the "suggested mini" entry for any of its encounters. I dunno if you can read anything into that or not. The battle maps (3 of the 4) are still DDM-legal though.

A lot of the encounter statblocks in this one have NPC/monsters with classes from the Completes and the environment books.

Have modules suddenly become profitable? Or are WOTC producing them becasue they must, as without them its hard to grow the brand if new players have no adventures to actually play once they've picked up a PHB, DMG and MM?

I think its a combination of a) nurturing newer players, and b) they just hit on something that works and is being explored.

Many of the products they've come out with are made with an eye for the guy who wants to play right out of the box with little prep time. OK I haven't really taken a look at Exp to Ravenloft, but I did buy Scourge of the Howling Horde. Whether you like the Delve format or not, you have to admit that it facilitates gameplay much faster. (for those gamers that don't already have preconcieved ideas of what they need from a published adventure)

After a quick skim of Scourge, I realized I could play it with little to no prep. My 10 year old nephew could run it. I think they'll be leaning toward more of this. Same, I'm afraid, with the MM4 format. Maybe you don't like that they took up space with MM1 monsters with character classes that you could have done yourself, but I'd guarantee you that someone new to D&D will be using them. I don't know that older do-it-yourselfers are their primary market. Not from what I can see.

I'd expect them to go further down this path yet. Delve adventures, Fantastic Locations, Tiles, and ready to run monsters...and DDM minis for those who don't have issues with the way they're sold.

While I'm here, here's a question for minis guys: Are there listings somewhere of the RPG stats of the various minis? Not necessarily full stats, but someplace where you can see that the "Orc Elfsmasher" is a 7th lvl Orc Barbarian?

 

[Thurbane]

C'mon people, for all those of you who feel as I do in this thread, please consider signing the petition!

http://www.petitiononline.com/WOTC1301/petition.html

- Thurbane

 

[Glyfair]

I personally like the idea and I'd buy them if they existed (assuming the modules and minis were of reasonable quality) - but I don't think it would be financially viable or sustainable in any way.

IIRC, WotC was going to release a miniature pack for an adventure (was it "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil"?) but bever dud release it.

Paizo had a page in their store with suggested miniatures for "The Whispering Cairn" and were going to do the rest of the Age of Worms AP, but stopped after the first or second adventure. I would think that would be a superior method. A fixed set will likely contain many miniatures I already have and don't need.

Have modules suddenly become profitable? Or are WOTC producing them becasue they must, as without them its hard to grow the brand if new players have no adventures to actually play once they've picked up a PHB, DMG and MM?

3rd parties discovered the same thing that WotC knew, that adventures aren't that profitable. The theory was that the smaller publishers could afford the smaller profit margins on adventures. However, most 3rd party publishers saw they could make more money on supplements so eventually avoided adventures.

Chainmail didn't fail because of internal politics. Chainmail failed because Chainmail was unpopular. The approach failed in the marketplace. Now, clearly the point is that SOME other approach was intended and politics caused that other approach to die and be replaced with an inferior one. Fine, that certainly sounds highly plausible.

One thing I remember Chris having said before is that originally the skirmish game was supposed to be the lead in to a mass battle game. Someone with a search function might be able to find the earlier post(s) where he lists the problems he faced. One thing I remember is that random "suits" would happen to be walking by a production meeting, decide to sit in and then make changes to the line on the spot.

Actually, the thought of Supplementing the Minis game with pre-built Army-packs is nothing new. If I'm not mistaken, Wizkids did something similar with 200 point pre-built faction packs... let me see if i can find one...

Yup. They failed. They failed horribly! Of course, part of the problem is that they were all figures from the base set, after a couple of expansions had been released. The experienced players had their fill of those figures. The new players typically went with the Rebellion starters/boosters rather than these sets (as it was still available), since there was a better chance at the chase figures (these sets only had one random figure).

Agreed. But for what it's worth, the latest one, Frostfell Rift, doesn't have the "suggested mini" entry for any of its encounters. I dunno if you can read anything into that or not.

Ari has addressed this here. Specifically:

In fact, I was specifically told not to require too many rare minis, or to make the scenarios too dependent on the new minis sets (though I was supposed to incorporate them to an extent). I think the entire point was to make the Fantastic Locations series more universally useful.

 

[Shadowslayer]

Of course, part of the problem is that they were all figures from the base set, after a couple of expansions had been released. The experienced players had their fill of those figures.

That's interesting. So the question for WOTC is "How many Bag O Orcs/Kobolds/Whatever can we realistically sell?"

If they did do it, I bet they'd be expensive.

Thanks for the link to Mousefeatu's post. I'd forgotten he said that. I haven't done any real comparisons, but the Frostfell Rift varied from the other FL products in a couple ways. Firstly there were two encounters per map instead of one. So, double your use, if you're using it as intended. That's a plus. And also, I think this one seemed to hold together better as an adventure than the previous ones. Hope they do more of these.

Also, when you consider that the Tiles are being pretty well recieved, it's only a matter of time before each set of tiles comes as a complete dungeon with a map and an encounter key. That'd be cool too.

 

[megamania]

The Tiles already come with some "suggested" dungeon layouts. I'm not sure WoTC would want to limit the theme too narrowly.

Set One: Basic
Set Two: Arcane Theme Still very basic
Set Three: Dungeon Still very basic
Set Four: Wilderness Basic
Set Five: Crypts Basic



Once we get sets entitled "Dregoth's Caverns of New Guistenal" I figure it will chase away too many players. However I do wonder how many more Tile Sets they can do. I still hope for a ship (six 7x8 tiles that show three levels of two types of ships) or something like that.

 

[megamania]

'course a set entitled "Drow Caverns" would sell.

 

[Lilaxe]

maybe Games Workshop can fill a hole in the marketplace by creating a new "wargame" that uses pre-painted plastic minis sold in "regiments" and "squads" which will replace the old metal-and-needs-painting Warhammer line that according to Ryan Dyancy is losing sales? If they were the right size, there would be no reason these units could not be used for multiple RPGing applications...

just an idea...