Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[Elder-Basilisk]

I've seen a number of mages who thought that.... they never had the opportunity to think better of it if they hung around long enough to be the target of a full round attack. Mages don't have the hit points to handle a full round attack from a proper fighter. And Greater Invisibility, Fly, and/or spider climb only help so much. Fighters have friends and items to negat invisibility, fly, and spider climb. (Fly, dispel magic, glitterdust, invisibility purge, etc).

Once you reach a certain level, the Wizard doesn't need to worry about being right next to a Fighter because he has Fly or Greater Invisibility or Prismatic Sphere or even Spider Climb...

 

[ThirdWizard]

yet again...
ranged combat has benefits
the benefits of ranged/thrown attacks shouldn't be allowed, while effectivly engaged "in melee combat", WITHOUT some sort of penalty (ie. AoO or disembowelment by the guy you've stopped defending yourself against)

i say effectivly because i dont think of people as stone statues when its not "their turn"

i dont think i can say it any more simply...
but i'm sure someone will make me try...
- Felnar

The main benefit of ranged combat is that it can be done at range. Once you no longer have that you have lost the main benefit of ranged combat. Since you can usually only throw a weapon within charging distance, you don't really get the ooph that an archery type character gets. It helps, yes, because it gives you more options. But, it isn't so good that it should be worried about.

 

[Coredump]

Hooray !
someone actually understands !

I am glad you think I understand and 'get' it.

But unfortunately, you ignored/didn't see my previous two posts.

There are a *lot* of disadvantages to ranged combat, especially thrown weapons. It is a trade off. Try reading my other two posts.

 

[jmichels]

I agree with Coredump there is a big penalty to ranged combat if you are taking your 5' step in order to do it. The meleer can use his 5' step and blast away at you and simply do more damage to you. Or he can just sunder your Quiver of Ehlonna (or whatever you are carrying) that stores your 6' spears. I mean you really can't carry more then a round or two worth of ammo on your body before you are out. In that time melee man is 5'ing after you and pounding you with full attacks with 2d6s to your 1d8s.

 

[Felnar]

well, i thought you understood...
you knew i wasnt taking about a thrown weapon specialist who throws weapons every round,
and i am still looking for the trade-off (all of which have been negligible, so far)

if you are fighting three people in melee,
then suddenly have a need to do damage to someone within 5 range increments
you can:
A. charge over (taking 3 AoO's from moving at -2 AC from charging) and do a single attack
B. step back and use Quick Draw to do full iterative attack thrown attack (for less damage per hit, and probably a lower to hit %)

assuming the target is within charge range, and you even have a straight line to run in, which option does more damage?
(without these assumptions at least half the battlefield in off limits to charging)

- Felnar

 

[Felnar]

I agree with Coredump there is a big penalty to ranged combat if you are taking your 5' step in order to do it. The meleer can use his 5' step and blast away at you and simply do more damage to you. Or he can just sunder your Quiver of Ehlonna (or whatever you are carrying) that stores your 6' spears. I mean you really can't carry more then a round or two worth of ammo on your body before you are out. In that time melee man is 5'ing after you and pounding you with full attacks with 2d6s to your 1d8s.

you can carry plenty of javelins (they're ony 2lbs each, and only 1d6 damage not 1d8)
and you arent throwing at the melee opponent, you have a greatsword for pounding on him

- Felnar

 

[apesamongus]

yet again...
ranged combat has benefits
the benefits of ranged/thrown attacks shouldn't be allowed, while effectivly engaged "in melee combat", WITHOUT some sort of penalty (ie. AoO or disembowelment by the guy you've stopped defending yourself against)

The ranged combatant has lost the main benefit of using ranged when in melee - he can no longer strike at someone from a distance without being hit. What benefit of ranged combat do you believe he retains that he should not?

 

[Nail]

Well, maybe everyone else was assuming <Felnar> had a relevant point. If that is all <Felnar is> saying then, it can be simplified to "a fighter should also have a ranged weapon", to which we all can reply "duh".

Exactly.

Question: "Is having a ranged attack option a good idea?"

Answer: "Err, yea. Duh!"

 

[Nail]

you can carry plenty of javelins (they're ony 2lbs each, and only 1d6 damage not 1d8)
and you arent throwing at the melee opponent, you have a greatsword for pounding on him.

Why is this a bad idea? This point is so far afield, I'm not sure what arguement there is to have.

I *think* what you're saying is: "What's the penalty for the fighter, who was engaged in melee, to 5-foot step back and throw at someone else?"

(I'll note here that this is NOT the point you started with. You're sorta a moving target yerself, ain't ya? I'm envisioning you 5-foot stepping away from the arguement melee and throwing at a hastily-constructed straw-man down range. Too bad I didn't ready an action. )

The penalty you are looking for is this: The fighter has not attacked his melee opponent for a round using his best attacks. That's lost damage, and a lost chance to cut down said opponent. Mainwhile the opponent essentially gets a "freebe" round to cut into your hit points. Combat is often about attrition, and your melee combatant just got a break.

If you think this isn't a big deal....hey, I'd love to square off against you.

 

[moritheil]

i say effectivly because i dont think of people as stone statues when its not "their turn"
- Felnar

Your problem is a conceptual turn problem, then, not a ranged combat problem. Have you tried considering that all turns happen almost simultaneously?