D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[matskralc]

There's also the fact that monsters vary in power. There are occasionally low CR creatures that are far more dangerous than their CR represents like wolves with Pack Tactics and trip or magma mephitis with heat metal or giants with high strength leading to better to hit rolls and damage. Not all creatures of the same CR are equally potent or powerful, which also skews building encounters based on CR.

This is extremely true, and it's why I don't blindly adhere to the math. There are certain creatures that I know my party can handle better than others. It's not really possible to take the handbook of general guidelines and add specific "adjust CR upwards by one if everybody is wearing metal armor and the monster can cast heat metal", though.

They do tell you to adjust difficulty up a step if the party faces drawbacks that the monster(s) don't, but I don't really know what more they can say about that. An extended discussion of examples could be more helpful, but I don't think they can really say anything that those of us who have been playing for a long time don't already know. Perhaps we could move the "monsters sorted by CR" charts to, I don't know, some place like the Monster Manual and use those pages in the DMG for that discussion. Add something stressing the importance of the action economy, too.

 

[Celtavian]

This is extremely true, and it's why I don't blindly adhere to the math. There are certain creatures that I know my party can handle better than others. It's not really possible to take the handbook of general guidelines and add specific "adjust CR upwards by one if everybody is wearing metal armor and the monster can cast heat metal", though.

They do tell you to adjust difficulty up a step if the party faces drawbacks that the monster(s) don't, but I don't really know what more they can say about that. An extended discussion of examples could be more helpful, but I don't think they can really say anything that those of us who have been playing for a long time don't already know. Perhaps we could move the "monsters sorted by CR" charts to, I don't know, some place like the Monster Manual and use those pages in the DMG for that discussion. Add something stressing the importance of the action economy, too.

The guidelines aren't bad for new DMs. It has all the ideas I think all of us experienced DMs use. They just aren't built for experienced players that find every way to exploit the game math. I freely admit that. No game really survives optimizers/exploiters/power gamers or whatever someone wants to call players that seek to exploit every rule/math advantage they can.

 

[MostlyDm]

This is where I'm at. I read mephits and heat metal. Boy, my martial metal armor wearer players would be pissed beyond belief if I did this over and over again to them, though they would be dead as well. My non-metal using players wouldn't probably be bothered much by the mephits. If I used this tactic too often, my players would have no real means to counter and just become annoyed. This is the equivalent of a DM power gaming the players. Not a bad tactic to humble them now and again, but definitely one that would annoy the players if used too often. I would hear whines about not being able to play the type of character they want to play without getting destroyed.

No save Heat metal by a large group of easily summoned creatures is the type of power gaming tactic both players and DMs can use against certain targets to create a really annoying combat scenario. Heat metal is already one of those spells we debate right now. Fortunately monsters don't wear metal armor as much as players. When a creature does wear metal armor, heat metal is a power spell that makes encounters against metal wearing enemies trivial.

The one nice thing about discussing these things with Hemlock is he finds some really annoying mechanical power gaming tactics for both DMs and players that at least give you a heads up of what to look out for. A player could summon magma mephits to heat metal some metal wearing enemy and that would be annoying as a DM.

This is the thing that keeps stumping me about your situation, Celtavian... Your players do everything they can to squeeze out every cheesy combo and bonus they can find, and yet they will get bent out of shape if you give them a taste of that back?

That seems like a really messed up, lopsided situation. I mean, never mind mephit spam, it sounds like they'll moan if you just throw a bit too many heat metal spells their way.

I guess it's just too far from my own experiences to fully understand how this can be fun for you. One of the games I'm currently running is a homebrew dungeon sprawl where I provided 20+ pregens of levels 1-5 and the players are seeing how far they can explore the dungeon before they've gotten every pregen killed. I built the dungeon for the world in general, and it's not remotely balanced for PCs of that level... Which is why it's fun.

The idea that my players would complain because I threw unreasonable challenges at them just seems. Sad. I don't know. And you seem kind of frustrated by it at times, as well, so... I'm sorry, man. That sucks.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Within the fiction, though, there is no reason why a highly intelligent lich wouldn't throw wave after wave of heat metal bots at a party loaded up with metal armor, though. Hemlock exaggerated the potential damage slightly, though. You can't get heat metaled by more than one memphit. Well, you can, but effects from the same spell don't stack. So the max damage per round from heat metal is 12d8, and the max to any one character is still only 2d8.

Don't stack on the same metal object, you mean. Yes, I simplified a bit, but I think you're oversimplifying if you think that each PC is only carrying one metal item. Also, the damage is caused by the mephit as a bonus action on its turn, not the PC's turn, so it's not even 100% clear that two mephits each spending their bonus action on tormenting the same PC with the same item constitutes "stacking" in the usual sense. For the sake of peace with the players I'd likely have them all target separate objects, but as a DM I'm not committed to that principle as an actual rule.

 

[Radaceus]

No. They weren't my original example. I've been having this discussion about 5E encounter building problems across four campaigns for months now. I guess you missed those other discussions. Just like the guys that keep jumping in trying to prove Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter aren't a problem even though they've been prove to be a problem over and over again since very early in 5Es run. I guess because you missed the months of other discussions on 5E encounter building problems, you get assume a dismissive stance. All the problems I've outlined have been occurring across multiple campaigns for quite a few of us.

Sorry you missed the Tyranny of Dragons and Princes of the Apocalypse campaign discussions when I was playing those and having the same problems. I'll make sure you send you a private message when I'm playing less of a Monty Haul campaign to ensure you're involved when I'm using point buy and playing closer to the rules. When the same problems occur, I'll see what you think then.

Oh forgive me, You are correct, I have not followed 5 months worth of your conversations. I was simply stating from what I have read of your posted discussion in this thread...
I refer to exhibit A:

I'd be interested to see the character sheets of this level 10 party that's wiping the floor with a horde of demons.

They're on my campaign thread in my signature.

So, we are to assume the answer to AntiStateQuixote's question was in error was in fact not the 10th level PC's from the monty haul campaign in your signature.

Look, nothing against playing Monty Haul, and giving PCs epic status and Legendary items, maybe they are Heroes of legend like Achilles, bless by the gods like Perseus, maybe they become gods themselves like Raistlin in Dragonlance, that's all cool, as long as everyone is having fun then the objective of playing is achieved. But, I find it hard to believe your arguments any more regarding the system being broken when facts like using 2 concentration spells at a time, running a Lich and Marilith at below potential, are withheld, and dropped into the conversation later with such nonchalance.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This is the thing that keeps stumping me about your situation, Celtavian... Your players do everything they can to squeeze out every cheesy combo and bonus they can find, and yet they will get bent out of shape if you give them a taste of that back?

That seems like a really messed up, lopsided situation. I mean, never mind mephit spam, it sounds like they'll moan if you just throw a bit too many heat metal spells their way.

I guess it's just too far from my own experiences to fully understand how this can be fun for you. One of the games I'm currently running is a homebrew dungeon sprawl where I provided 20+ pregens of levels 1-5 and the players are seeing how far they can explore the dungeon before they've gotten every pregen killed. I built the dungeon for the world in general, and it's not remotely balanced for PCs of that level... Which is why it's fun.

The idea that my players would complain because I threw unreasonable challenges at them just seems. Sad. I don't know. And you seem kind of frustrated by it at times, as well, so... I'm sorry, man. That sucks.

I think Celtavian has mentioned that it is kind of a messed-up, lopsided situation that he's not happy with. He's got a bunch of old gamers who sound like they're basically burned out. At this point they get together not so much for zany roleplay, but mostly for the combats. Didn't he mention earlier in this thread that he's considered switching to a non-d20 system to see if it will rejuvenate play? Give him the benefit of the doubt here and let's assume he knows what he's talking about: that the players like to do unto others without it being done unto them.

All I can really say about that situation is, "Wow, I'm really sorry. I hope you find a way."

 

[MostlyDm]

I think Celtavian has mentioned that it is kind of a messed-up, lopsided situation that he's not happy with. He's got a bunch of old gamers who sound like they're basically burned out. At this point they get together not so much for zany roleplay, but mostly for the combats. Didn't he mention earlier in this thread that he's considered switching to a non-d20 system to see if it will rejuvenate play? Give him the benefit of the doubt here and let's assume he knows what he's talking about: that the players like to do unto others without it being done unto them.

All I can really say about that situation is, "Wow, I'm really sorry. I hope you find a way."

Yeah, agreed. I offered a few ideas of alternate systems to try out.

I guess every time it comes up it just surprises me even more than the last example.

 

[Celtavian]

This is the thing that keeps stumping me about your situation, Celtavian... Your players do everything they can to squeeze out every cheesy combo and bonus they can find, and yet they will get bent out of shape if you give them a taste of that back?

That seems like a really messed up, lopsided situation. I mean, never mind mephit spam, it sounds like they'll moan if you just throw a bit too many heat metal spells their way.

I guess it's just too far from my own experiences to fully understand how this can be fun for you. One of the games I'm currently running is a homebrew dungeon sprawl where I provided 20+ pregens of levels 1-5 and the players are seeing how far they can explore the dungeon before they've gotten every pregen killed. I built the dungeon for the world in general, and it's not remotely balanced for PCs of that level... Which is why it's fun.

The idea that my players would complain because I threw unreasonable challenges at them just seems. Sad. I don't know. And you seem kind of frustrated by it at times, as well, so... I'm sorry, man. That sucks.

It does suck some days. I'm not sure I'd keep playing if I didn't know all of them for twenty plus years and enjoy hanging out with them other than just playing D&D. We have had some absolutely insane arguments at the table over the years over game rules and such. Myself and one other guy usually get stuck DMing. I still remember in Pathfinder when the Come and Get Me rage power entered the game. It was way too powerful. All these people telling me it was fine, but it wasn't. Too many ways to build to exploit it and limit its disadvantages. I had just had to deal with it for a whole campaign because some game designer thought it was a reasonable power. It isn't for a power gamer. At least nothing in 5E is near as bad as Pathfinder/3E. That was some annoying power gamer material there.

It's rare that I get to just enjoy playing. I'm glad the other guy DMs on occasion. Even he is not loving it at times given the exploits and some of the game math. I'm going to need a break after this campaign. I think I bit off more than I can chew handing out the powerful magic items. I hope the demon lords can handle the pain. I made them much stronger than they are in the book, which is why I gave out such potent magic items. I'm not sure if the PCs will die or the demon lords go down too easy. We'll see how it goes. I hope I made them strong enough for an epic battle that isn't too lop-sided one way or the other. I want them to remember this fight.

 

[MostlyDm]

Best of luck, man! I hope the endgame is fun for all involved.

 

[matskralc]

Don't stack on the same metal object, you mean. Yes, I simplified a bit, but I think you're oversimplifying if you think that each PC is only carrying one metal item. Also, the damage is caused by the mephit as a bonus action on its turn, not the PC's turn, so it's not even 100% clear that two mephits each spending their bonus action on tormenting the same PC with the same item constitutes "stacking" in the usual sense. For the sake of peace with the players I'd likely have them all target separate objects, but as a DM I'm not committed to that principle as an actual rule.

Ahh! I don't know why I was thinking that instead of targeting a metal object you target the creature wearing or holding it. That obviously makes no sense, but I thought it, anyway. My only defense is that my PCs don't play bards or druids much and the only bard I've ever played only just reached 3rd level after our last session.