D&D 5E Designer apathy and sunk costs, The reason the sorcerer is doomed to uncanny valley one-trick-ponieness.

[Ovinomancer]

Sorry, I was unclear here- I meant the original, 3e era sorcerer design.

Ah. Yes, I see your point, now. It was the reference to the champion that throw me.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The sorcerer as it is looks too much like a wizard, but can't truly replace it. The original sorcerer could replace a wizard but looked less like it. And this is it, a good sorcerer can cover the same roles just in different ways, just not all at once, you choose a niche and fill it, the game as it is makes the generalists better than the specialists.

The original Sorcerer could replace a Wizard: on days the Wizard would prep about the same slate of spells the Sorcerer knew. And, if you were being optimal, that meant days that the Wizard had no clue what challenges he might face. So in some campaigns, where the party was very reactive and the challenges varied and unpredictable, the Sorcerer & Wizard were on almost equal footing. Most of the time, though, the Wizard lived up to it's Tier 1 rating while the Sorcerer clearly deserved it's place in Tier 2.

In 5e, the Wizard combines the 3.5 Sorcerer's short-term flexibility (Spontaneous casting) with the classic Vancian longer-term flexibility of prepped casting. The Sorcerer, well, doesn't - it doubles down on the short-term flexibility side with metamagic. So the contrast between the two is similar, but it's less significant, since everyone is already casting spontaneously.

Is that about what you were getting at with 'generalist beats specialist?' (Because, in other arenas, like combat styles & feat combos, specialists win out.)

The current class looks too much like a wizard -without even allowing for some normality with all scales wings and mosntruous elements-, lacks some minor things -like spears- and can't access many utility spells, and this is why I can barely play a non-blaster, I can't learn the right spells anymore, they are out of reach now, and what is left is less versatile and less able to fill a niche.

Wouldn't being able to access many utility spells make it /more/ like the Wizard?

How many people happy with the sorcerer didn't play one before? how many fans of previous versions of the class aren't happy with it? Why only blaster players were satisfied?

Don't know, wouldn't want to speculate. You could start a completely meaningless self-selecting ENWorld poll and not find out.

That brings up an interesting point- I think (IIRC) sorcerers were basically designed with the same type of player in mind as they designed the champion for, the guy who didn't want to track all those spells and pick new ones each day but just wanted to play his character and blow stuff up. (As opposed to tracking superiority dice and picking maneuvers and stuff.) IOW, the sorcerer was originally a simplified, easy-to-use wizard for players who like spellcasting but wanted an option requiring less upkeep.

Maybe, though the Warlock seems simpler than the Sorcerer, and both are still significantly more complex than the 'complex fighter' Battlemaster sub-class. Not that there aren't players who would like a simple-to-build/play magic-using class. But to actually come down to the Champion's level would require something more like the Elemental Sorcerer from HotEC - maybe even less-so, really.

The class feels like designed for players who didn't like sorcerers, and since it was the only one left out of the open playtest I don't really feel satisfied with it, I feel completely left out.

Sorcerer was not the only class left completely out of the playtest - in fact, it was in one playtest packet, so that's more than the Psion or Warlord got. It was certainly under-playtested, but it was not alone. That aside, 5e is something of a compromise edition, and that can often mean designing a game element to not offend people who who hate it and will never use it anyway, at the cost of making it disappointing to anyone who might actually have used it.

Oh and the "can cast more" is a lie, arcane recovery recovers basically the same amount of slots, just all at once, and the wizard special abilites don't reduce this number. So a wizard basically can cast more than a sorcerer

Really? That is something you can illustrate with numbers. How many slots of what level at each level for each class...?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Really? That is something you can illustrate with numbers. How many slots of what level at each level for each class...?

Both have the same number of and progession of spell slots.

With arcane recovery, the Wizzy recovers half his Wizard level in spell slots up to fifth level. The Sorcerer gets his level in spell points, but the trade in is slot level+1 for 1st and 2nd, and slot level+2 up to fifth.

So, at 2nd level, they get the same (1 level recovery vs 2 points to swap for a 1st level slot). At 10th, the wizard gets back 5 levels of spells, and the sorcerer has 10 points to trade in. That's 5 first level spells (even), 2 second and 1 first (even), or 2 third (slightly ahead of the wizard's 1 3rd and 1 2nd). So far, pretty even. At 20th, the wizard get's back 10 levels, and the sorcerer has 20 points to spend. Again, even at 1st and 2nd, slightly in the sorcerer's favor at 3rd and 4th (4 3rd vs 3 3rd and a 1st; 3 4th and a 2nd vs 2 4th and a 2nd). It's decidedly in the Sorcerer's favor on 4th and 5th level spells, where the sorcerer can cast 1 more 4th and, while he has the same number of possible 5ths as the wizard can recover, he can also get a 4th to go with them.

So, that looks like the sorcerer can cast a few more spells than the wizard. At the top end, its one more of the highest recoverable slot, or a bunch of low level slots more. BUT... ever time the sorcerer uses one of his core abilities - metamagic - he loses slots to recover, and fast. The Wizard never loses his recoverable slots, even if he uses his other class features. One twinned, empowered spell and the sorcerer has traded one time cosmic power for fewer total spells cast than the wizard, at any level (twinned is the same cost as the spell slot used to cast, while you're usually only going to empower a spell if you need to roll more than 1 die, let's say 2, so that's the entire cost of the highest recoverable spell using font of magic).


Using the sorcerer's primary class ability, metamagic, effectively means that he can cast fewer spells than a similarly leveled wizard over the course of a day.

 

[Minigiant]

The strength of Flexible Magic and Metamagic is when low level slots lose effectiveness.

Slots don't scale.
So if the dragon is immune to burning hands
or the giant is too deadly for vampiric touch's range,
or your cantrip eclipses your magic missile...

.....you can consume that 1st level slot for sorcery points.

 

[Minigiant]

IF you wish to look at the numbers.

Say you are a 7th level gold dragon sorcerer with 18 Charisma.

Your fire bolt deals 2d10+4 damage to 1 target within 120 feet.
Your fireball deals 8d6+4 damage in a 20 ft radius sphere within 150 feet with a 3rd level slot.
Your burning hands deals 3d6+4 damage in a 15ft cone with a 1st level slot.

Your cantrip when it hits will out damage your 1st level spell vs 1 target. At level 7, getting 1 target in a 15ft cone isn't easy nor safe as now your party is dealing with swarms of little guys, a few bigger guys, or a huge threat with some filler guards.

At level 7, your 1st level slots are most only good for minor buffs, utility, or emergency AoE. They are out-scaled. A 7th level sorcerer or wizard has 4 of them.

However a sorcerer can cannibalize a 1st level slot for a single point and empower their fireball, rerolling all the 1s and 2s. This can add 5-10 extra damage on the fireball (with it's larger volume than the cone). This also puts all the damage upfront in one turn over the "fireball then burning hands next turn" combo.

Or you could twin the fire bolt for "guaranteeing" the double damage at the safer range.

+range
+area
+speed
sometimes +damage

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The strength of Flexible Magic and Metamagic is when low level slots lose effectiveness.

Slots don't scale.
So if the dragon is immune to burning hands
or the giant is too deadly for vampiric touch's range,
or your cantrip eclipses your magic missile...

.....you can consume that 1st level slot for sorcery points.

Also, if you're a Sorlock, you can supercharge your spell slots by building up sorcery points over multiple short rests and converting them to spell slots.

 

[MoonSong]

Well, I never denied it can be a powerful blaster. But it is a weak specialist on anything else, it isn't that you cna only build one-trick ponies I don't like -it is the charm-, but that you can only get one kind of one-trick pony, all else is window-dressing -a very unpleasant window dressing-.these are my complaints, lack of overall versatility and lack of more pleasant or less strong flavors. You know it is very hard to play the enchanting sorceress when she looks like a monster or doesn't blink, or is a walking disaster zone. And in the end it doesn't matter if it is the best burger in the world, some of us only eat junk food once in a while...

 

[Hathorym]

Well, I never denied it can be a powerful blaster. But it is a weak specialist on anything else, it isn't that you cna only build one-trick ponies I don't like -it is the charm-, but that you can only get one kind of one-trick pony, all else is window-dressing -a very unpleasant window dressing-.these are my complaints, lack of overall versatility and lack of more pleasant or less strong flavors. You know it is very hard to play the enchanting sorceress when she looks like a monster or doesn't blink, or is a walking disaster zone. And in the end it doesn't matter if it is the best burger in the world, some of us only eat junk food once in a while...

Each time I've seen you respond, I've come way with the same sense. Please correct me if I'm incorrect. You think the sorcerer is fine, but wish you could make it weaker to do the things you want to do without playing a wizard. Is that correct? I just get the sense that you want your cake and eat it to, and since this is your third thread about this topic, maybe you're not asking the questions correctly to get the answers you want? Or are you even looking for answers, just needing someone to commiserate with you on your rather limited view of what a sorcerer should be. Does that about sum it up?

 

[Jester David]

Didn't we already have this thread? Like this exact same thread argument for argument note for note started by the same person?
There wasn't a consensus then and I don't see room for a consensus now.

Well, I never denied it can be a powerful blaster. But it is a weak specialist on anything else, it isn't that you cna only build one-trick ponies I don't like -it is the charm-, but that you can only get one kind of one-trick pony, all else is window-dressing -a very unpleasant window dressing-.these are my complaints, lack of overall versatility and lack of more pleasant or less strong flavors. You know it is very hard to play the enchanting sorceress when she looks like a monster or doesn't blink, or is a walking disaster zone. And in the end it doesn't matter if it is the best burger in the world, some of us only eat junk food once in a while...

Sorcerers can be pretty darn flexible. They just have to make a choice and cannot remake their character every day. But, then, they never could. That's the catch with sorcerers. Allowing a sorcerer free rein to rebuild each day just makes them wizards, and loses them some of that sorcerer feel.
And it's nice to have a range of complexity between arcane casters for players of different tastes. Choice and variety is good.

A sorcerer can be a pretty awesome support character. Twin Spell is pretty awesome for buffs, allowing you to basically cast and maintain two concentration spells at the same time. That's huge. Distant Spell is fun making touch spells ranged, and as many buffs (and the best heals) are touch, that's nice. Extend Spell makes a short duration buff last all day.
They're also solid at debuffing, for much the same reason but also Heighten Spell. When you need that debuff to take, turn to the sorcerer.
Sorcerers are also pretty solid as enchanters, being able to use Subtle Spell to keep their magic, well, subtle. And being able to make a low level charm last for 24 hours with Extend Spell is nice. And Charisma won't be a dump stat for a Sorcerer enchanter, so they can make the most of their charms.

Now, sorcerers don't really get a subclass that helps with this stuff. But that doesn't mean the class is bad, just that it's low in options. Similar things could be said about the bard, which is pretty poor at enchantments as well at the moment. The wizard wins just because it has more options. But it just takes a single subclass - official or unofficial - to fix this gap.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Didn't we already have this thread? Like this exact same thread argument for argument note for note started by the same person? There wasn't a consensus then and I don't see room for a consensus now..

Hey, if Mercurius was allowed to post thirty-seven "I think WotC is making a mistake by not publishing more material quicker" threads over the last six months... we should at least give MoonSong(Kaiilurker) the same opportunity.