D&D 5E Designer apathy and sunk costs, The reason the sorcerer is doomed to uncanny valley one-trick-ponieness.

[MoonSong]

Ok, I need to defend myself. I don't really remember starting so many sorcerer threads, the last one was about speculation for SCAG, and didn't post after opening it. Before that I did start one to complain, but it was like a year ago and it was about simple weapons. Before that it was a poll about the sorc preview, and two more during the playtest -on 2012 and 2013. Really, The favored soul and the storm sorcerer just kept me happy with the way designers were approaching the sorcerer, I only beccame unhappy again when they did what they did to the storm sorc.

And for all the thing about having a limited view, why is "can be a specialist on one thing, but that thing can be anything" more limited than "all sorcerers are blasters and only blasters"?

 

[Hathorym]

Here's a list of sorcerer spells that are non-blaster:
Cantrips: Blade Ward, Dancing Lights, Friends, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, True Strike
1st Level: Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Jump etc.

The point is, you don't have to build a blaster sorcerer, and it is completely possible to not be a blaster-sorcerer. So, honestly, I don't understand the complaint. You could make an enchantress sorcerer and never take a blasting spell. But that would be your niche, and you'd fill it very well with sorcery points, using extended spell, heightened spell, and subtle spell. Heck, I may want to make this character the next time I play.

 

[Minigiant]

The sorcerer doesn't have to be a blaster. The sorcerer can be an enchanter, defensive mage, buff mage, and many other forms of mage.

The key part was that the sorcerer worked best with simple, direct, spells which had many uses. Direct damage. Counter spells and hard abjurations. Blunt charms. Stiff illusions. Flexible buffs.

Sorcerers never had the room for niche spells, class redundant spells, or complex spells.

 

[MoonSong]

Well then why the loss of summons -very flexible-? why is unseeen servant such a complex spell? (it is pretty useful), Rope trick is versatile, why is it so out of bounds? (I have successfully run sorcerers with niche spells, you just had to remain focused, but it was very possible)

The problem with being non-blaster as it is, is that your two spells known can easily be covered by the wizard's four prepared spells, which is enough to cover more of your niche than you, and he also has extra spells that do what you just can't, and sometimes he doesn't even need to spend slots to cast those. So he can do more than you on your niche, cover it better and do more outside your niche on top of that. At most you can get some use out of friends by using subtle spell, unless your DM just decides that the target knows it was you anyway. Or if you can multi three levels of bard you could combine silence with subtle spell to shut down enemy casters and go crazy with knock -but again, too long to get there, and good luck on not being labeled a munchkin in the process-. Seriously even as a favored soul you are quite limited to quicken and twin, not much room for extended or subtle that are so cool, but nowhere near as good to fill your niche, in fact there are so little spells you can extend, it is a waste, far spell is also high on priority.

Really, I don't know how you people use a sorcerer who quickens, empowers and heightens while then casting subtly and twinning a buff as an example of how powerful they are, during most of low levels sorcerers have only two options, and three during the high levels. Sorcerers don't really know that much metamagic, and each use of it reduces how many spells you can cast on the day. Heck, the collective consciousness still thinks sorcerers can cast like crazy, when it is wizards that can cast 1st and 2nd level spells at will!

The system is weighted towards blaster sorcerers, there's too may hurdles to do anyhting else, you can't do utility as well as you could in 3e and the bar where you party starts wishing you had a wizard instead is quite low.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You make it sound pretty awful, but is it really that the Sorcerer doesn't work for Sorcerer concepts, or is it just that it doesn't measure up to the Wizard?
Unless there's a wizard or other caster in the party showing you up with their Tier-1-ness, /is/ the party really going to be wishing there was one?

And, a caster ally who consistently has the spells you expect is a plus, too, even if it is, strictly speaking, a limitation to not be able to change them. If you ask a Sorcerer for a spell you've seen him cast before, chances are he can deliver, ask the same of a Wizard and he might not even have prepped it that morning.

 

[discosoc]

I'd still love to know what the sorcerer has to do with the uncanny valley.

 

[Hathorym]

I'd still love to know what the sorcerer has to do with the uncanny valley.

It's uncanny the depths the OP will go to prove... something. I still don't quite understand what is trying to be conveyed. The OP wants Sorcerers to do everything a Wizard can do, but doesn't want to play a wizard. All Stop. It's baffling how pretzeled the argument has become.

 

[Minigiant]

Well then why the loss of summons -very flexible-? why is unseeen servant such a complex spell? (it is pretty useful), Rope trick is versatile, why is it so out of bounds? (I have successfully run sorcerers with niche spells, you just had to remain focused, but it was very possible)

The problem with being non-blaster as it is, is that your two spells known can easily be covered by the wizard's four prepared spells, which is enough to cover more of your niche than you, and he also has extra spells that do what you just can't, and sometimes he doesn't even need to spend slots to cast those. So he can do more than you on your niche, cover it better and do more outside your niche on top of that. At most you can get some use out of friends by using subtle spell, unless your DM just decides that the target knows it was you anyway. Or if you can multi three levels of bard you could combine silence with subtle spell to shut down enemy casters and go crazy with knock -but again, too long to get there, and good luck on not being labeled a munchkin in the process-. Seriously even as a favored soul you are quite limited to quicken and twin, not much room for extended or subtle that are so cool, but nowhere near as good to fill your niche, in fact there are so little spells you can extend, it is a waste, far spell is also high on priority.

Really, I don't know how you people use a sorcerer who quickens, empowers and heightens while then casting subtly and twinning a buff as an example of how powerful they are, during most of low levels sorcerers have only two options, and three during the high levels. Sorcerers don't really know that much metamagic, and each use of it reduces how many spells you can cast on the day. Heck, the collective consciousness still thinks sorcerers can cast like crazy, when it is wizards that can cast 1st and 2nd level spells at will!

The system is weighted towards blaster sorcerers, there's too may hurdles to do anything else, you can't do utility as well as you could in 3e and the bar where you party starts wishing you had a wizard instead is quite low.

The system is weighted to blasty spells, charms, and defenses as D&D is currently designed as a combat first game. So every class is weighted to have kinng power and the player has to opt out of being a dangerous killer.

As for the spell solection, WOTC ecided to make sorcerer to lose spell's invented by others or "complex" spells. Wizards go wide with spells and sorcerers go narrow but double down.

However the low amount of spells known weights the sorcerer to simpler spells. Niche spells where handled by wizard and in 3e, the smart wizard wrote them onto scrolls anyways. Outside of summons and divinations, WOTC, more or less cut out the middle man and stripped out all those spells most sorcerers didn't take. Add in 5th edition's harsh stance against having tons of utility spells and this is what you get.

 

[MoonSong]

It's uncanny the depths the OP will go to prove... something. I still don't quite understand what is trying to be conveyed. The OP wants Sorcerers to do everything a Wizard can do, but doesn't want to play a wizard. All Stop. It's baffling how pretzeled the argument has become.

Uncanny valley:

"This sorceress has a force of personality around her, she looks almost human, if not for the scales and the claws "

Or the wild mage, with no hair, red color and feathers?

Shadow sorcerer, looks like a cadaver, or doesn't blink, or is pale....

Basically each new bloodline finds new ways to make sorcerers look like freaks (Except perhaps favored soul).

Now, I know that wanting to do the same things a wizard can without being a wizard sounds like wanting your cake and eating it too -though you can't eat cake if you don't have it first and if you have it but can't eat it is as good as not having it-. But it isn't that weird, there are plenty of examples from real life where it is possible -they are just offlimits by policy-. So lets imagine:

We have a society of cats and dogs, dogs have lots of rights, access to work, education, wealth and everything, while cats are second class citizens -if they could just vote-. A cat rises to demand for equality and it is told: "Oh but you can have all this and be our equal; you just have to stop being a cat." , "But I'm a cat, not a dog, I shouldn't need to be a dog to have equality", "Well sucking is part of being a cat if you are a cat you cannot have all this, period."...

I want sorcerers to be equal to wizards, not identical. Sorcerer identity isn't tied to capabilities, but to the story and unique traits -traits, using cha to cast is a trait, being able to create demiplanes is a capability-. Otherwise there would be no point to my point.

 

[Hathorym]

Uncanny valley:

"This sorceress has a force of personality around her, she looks almost human, if not for the scales and the claws "

Or the wild mage, with no hair, red color and feathers?

Shadow sorcerer, looks like a cadaver, or doesn't blink, or is pale....

Basically each new bloodline finds new ways to make sorcerers look like freaks (Except perhaps favored soul).

Okay, I don't think it means what you think it means. n. used in reference to the phenomenon whereby a computer-generated figure or humanoid robot bearing a near-identical resemblance to a human being arouses a sense of unease or revulsion in the person viewing it.

Now, I know that wanting to do the same things a wizard can without being a wizard sounds like wanting your cake and eating it too -though you can't eat cake if you don't have it first and if you have it but can't eat it is as good as not having it-. But it isn't that weird, there are plenty of examples from real life where it is possible -they are just offlimits by policy-. So lets imagine:

Oh yes, let's imagine...

We have a society of cats and dogs, dogs have lots of rights, access to work, education, wealth and everything, while cats are second class citizens -if they could just vote-. A cat rises to demand for equality and it is told: "Oh but you can have all this and be our equal; you just have to stop being a cat." , "But I'm a cat, not a dog, I shouldn't need to be a dog to have equality", "Well sucking is part of being a cat if you are a cat you cannot have all this, period."...

Spoken like a rights reformer since equality demands were started.

I want sorcerers to be equal to wizards, not identical. Sorcerer identity isn't tied to capabilities, but to the story and unique traits -traits, using cha to cast is a trait, being able to create demiplanes is a capability-. Otherwise there would be no point to my point.

Okay, I think I'm starting to understand why we are having such a disconnect between what you want to convey and what is actually articulated.
1. You want the Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists to be one list as it was in 3.5
2. You want the Sorcerer to have access to more spells
3. You desire to play the Sorcerer as a jack-of-all-trades
4. Since Charisma is the attribute with which you most identify, it's a sacred cow to your build.
5. The wizard is a wizard, and not a sorcerer, and that is why you don't want to play a wizard.

Are those points correct?