D&D 5E Designer apathy and sunk costs, The reason the sorcerer is doomed to uncanny valley one-trick-ponieness.

[chriton227]

If you go all utility, then casting stat doesn't matter. If your only purpose is to be a magical thief, you don't care about casting fireball or whatever, and since you don't have the room for it anyway it doesn't matter. A wizard will always have the temptation to wear another hat tomorrow, and has less credibility on going on a niche. This was skill intensive and needs int, but other niches don't -maybe int 13 for combat expertise for the gish-. That is why I love 3e sorcerers, they let you build your niche and be good at it.

But the casting stat does still matter. That 13 means that you can't cast 4th level or higher spells, plus starting at level 4 you will have fewer spells per day as a result of the lower number of bonus spells.

And as far as being "good at it", you have to go cross class to get the open locks, disable device, move silently, and hide, while at the same time having fewer skill points than a rogue and having to reduce your Dex to put points in Cha for your spell casting, so your skills will each be 2-4 points lower to start than an equivalent rogue. Instant Locksmith (if you DM allows non-core spells) will get your Open Locks almost up to what a same-level rogue will have, except you only get a few castings per day and the rogue can do it at-will. You also can't find any traps with a search DC higher than 20 because you lack the rogue's trapfinding ability. All this means that you will start off a worse thief than a vanilla rogue and will fall farther behind every level, while not bringing the sneak attack damage to combat that rogue would have, being more fragile than the rogue (lower HP, no armor, no evasion, etc.), and also not bringing the magical firepower that a sorcerer is capable of bringing.

 

[neobolts]

As long as sorcerers aren't a level behind wizards in spell access, 5e can say they only wear garbage bags and smell like rotten meat and I'll be happy. lol

 

[DEFCON 1]

If you go all utility, then casting stat doesn't matter. If your only purpose is to be a magical thief, you don't care about casting fireball or whatever, and since you don't have the room for it anyway it doesn't matter. A wizard will always have the temptation to wear another hat tomorrow, and has less credibility on going on a niche. This was skill intensive and needs int, but other niches don't -maybe int 13 for combat expertise for the gish-. That is why I love 3e sorcerers, they let you build your niche and be good at it.

So if I'm understanding you correctly... one of the things you like about Sorcerers is that no matter what kind of niche character concept you build, that's the ONLY way you're going to be able to play that character. Whereas if you play a Wizard, you'll have the opportunity to change your niche if at some point you feel like it would be a good idea.

Gotta say... that's always been one of the most irritating arguments I've seen here on the boards for the reason to play/build/design game features. The idea that a person HAS to have the game restrict things for themselves, because otherwise they'd have no choice but to play against their desired type or make "sub-standard" decisions.

We see that argument all the time with the "non-healing" Cleric concept-- how players don't WANT to be a healer or take healing spells but feel as though they end up having to (either from internal or external pressure). Or those godforsaken 4E "Weapon Expertise" feat arguments, how everybody and their mothers screamed to high heaven that they were a "feat tax" because since the feats existed, they had no choice but to use a slot to take them because otherwise they weren't "playing smart". They couldn't take something fun because the game was forcing them to take a boring mechanical feat because math.

And my response to all of these things is the same: It is not the game's responsibility to set the rules up so that you can play your character how you want to play it while abdicating all personal responsibility.

- If you don't want to spend a feat on Weapon Expertise... then have the guts to tell the table "Screw you, I don't care, I'm using my feat slot on something more interesting. You don't like it, then tell the DM to give us all the feat for free so we can use our precious slots on stuff we want."

- If you don't want to heal as a Cleric... then have the guts to tell the table "Screw you, I don't care, I'm not preparing those spells because I'm a necromancer and not your personal medic. You don't like it, go buy yourselves some healing potions."

- If you don't want to play outside your character niche even though you're a Wizard.... then have the guts to say "Screw you, I don't care what spells I could add to my spellbook, I'm a Spellthief and I'm not taking Fireball. Get over it."

But don't come crying to us if you aren't able to do that, and would rather the game just have been designed so you were never forced to make that call in the first place. Stand up for yourself and the character you wish to play. And don't get all upset that the game won't put restrictions in place to allow you to play that character without having other people question you on why you aren't making other choices.

 

[jayoungr]

If sorcerers could choose any spell from the wizard list, but had fewer spell slots to make up for also having metamagic, would that ...

• Be overpowered?
• Dilute the flavor of the sorcerer class?

(No real opinion on the subject here, just curious what others think.)

 

[Sacrosanct]

So if I'm understanding you correctly... one of the things you like about Sorcerers is that no matter what kind of niche character concept you build, that's the ONLY way you're going to be able to play that character. Whereas if you play a Wizard, you'll have the opportunity to change your niche if at some point you feel like it would be a good idea.

Gotta say... that's always been one of the most irritating arguments I've seen here on the boards for the reason to play/build/design game features. The idea that a person HAS to have the game restrict things for themselves, because otherwise they'd have no choice but to play against their desired type or make "sub-standard" decisions.

We see that argument all the time with the "non-healing" Cleric concept-- how players don't WANT to be a healer or take healing spells but feel as though they end up having to (either from internal or external pressure). Or those godforsaken 4E "Weapon Expertise" feat arguments, how everybody and their mothers screamed to high heaven that they were a "feat tax" because since the feats existed, they had no choice but to use a slot to take them because otherwise they weren't "playing smart". They couldn't take something fun because the game was forcing them to take a boring mechanical feat because math.

And my response to all of these things is the same: It is not the game's responsibility to set the rules up so that you can play your character how you want to play it while abdicating all personal responsibility.

- If you don't want to spend a feat on Weapon Expertise... then have the guts to tell the table "Screw you, I don't care, I'm using my feat slot on something more interesting. You don't like it, then tell the DM to give us all the feat for free so we can use our precious slots on stuff we want."

- If you don't want to heal as a Cleric... then have the guts to tell the table "Screw you, I don't care, I'm not preparing those spells because I'm a necromancer and not your personal medic. You don't like it, go buy yourselves some healing potions."

- If you don't want to play outside your character niche even though you're a Wizard.... then have the guts to say "Screw you, I don't care what spells I could add to my spellbook, I'm a Spellthief and I'm not taking Fireball. Get over it."

But don't come crying to us if you aren't able to do that, and would rather the game just have been designed so you were never forced to make that call in the first place. Stand up for yourself and the character you wish to play. And don't get all upset that the game won't put restrictions in place to allow you to play that character without having other people question you on why you aren't making other choices.

clap clap clap

It's amazing what communication among the people at the game table will accomplish. Rules are guidelines, and no one should feel pressured or forced to choose options that they don't want to choose. Don't play with people like that. It's a group activity, where no one person is more important than the other, as far as having fun goes. You don't have to do anything. Own your own choices.

 

[jgsugden]

I have played sorcerers for many years and in all available editions - often multiple different sorcerers in each edition to explore different builds. I think the 5E version is a fine representation of the core of the class.

Most of the problems listed here are essentially the design limitations on the class. They're there intentionlly to provide specific limits. Complaining about them is like complaining that fighters can't fly or wizards can't do multi-attacks. Sorcerers are specialists. They have few options, so they have to figure out how to make the most of the options they do have. They need to look at versatile spells, and need to explore interesting ways to use them.

If you're a mid level wizard and you know that the PCs are going to be climbing cliffs and fighting on elevated platforms, you can prepare feather fall, fly, or some other anti-falling magic. A sorcerer likely can't devote resources to something like that - so they need to come up with other ways to use their magic to safeguard themselves. Perhaps a summoned creature can carry you?

And your "blaster" options may not always be great. There might be a very small number of spells that get the full benefit of your draconic heritage, etc... So what? There are going to be combats where your blaster spells are not the solution. This is most likely at low levels - when a crossbow can be as useful as your cantrips. Later, you might find yourself not being a star in every combat still... and that is ok. There will also be combats when your expertise aligns with the enemy and you excel.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It wasn't just spontaneous casting, it was a different story, a very inviting "this caster can come from anywhere and still do the great things the more square mages can do."

Sure, but that hasn't gone away. The Sorcerer still offers a different conceptual take on the arcane spell caster that lends itself a little better to the kinds of magical abilities displayed in genre, at a similar price relative to the Wizard.

I'm not saying that a little metamagic makes up for everyone else getting spontaneous casting, just that it's still a comparable alternative to the wizard. Maybe not optimal, but it never was optimal.

Charisma as a casting stat invited different personalities.

CHA's still the caster stat, too.

And what good does it do me if I still don't get to play it? How many Online and AL DMs... (A lot of DMs just say no the moment you mention multiclassing)

On-line's a different story but multi-classing is permitted in AL - and homewbrew isn't.

 

[Eric V]

While it's true that sorcerers have less spells known, thanks to meta magic they can do a lot more with those spells. At least that's how I see the sorcerer vs. wizard debate.

I guess that's how it's intended, but with sorcery points being such a limited resource, I tend to think they overestimated the impact of metamagic. Having 6 points over a day's worth of encounters hasn't made me feel too much different from a wizard with fewer spells known/prepared. :/

 

[Mistwell]

So has anyone figured out what nagliegency means?

 

[Ovinomancer]

So has anyone figured out what nagliegency means?

It's clearly a reference to the pony threat. Specifically to the undead queen of the ponies, The Nag, or, the Nagliege. Her reign, the Nagliegency, has seen the growth of the greatest power of the pony threat, what with the mainstreaming and acceptance of ponies. When the ponies make their move, though, plunging the world into fire and blood, the horrid neighing of the Nagliege will echo alongside the screams of the children.

Unless more people wake to the pony menace, our time is short and will end in horror.