D&D 5E Designer apathy and sunk costs, The reason the sorcerer is doomed to uncanny valley one-trick-ponieness.

[I'm A Banana]

I shouldn't have to optimize to be effective. I really don't understand how to do that, and I never needed it before with a sorcerer. And if you need to optimize to be effective, maybe the class is underpowered?

What optimization? As the player of that wild mage, optimization is the last thing on my mind (I'm a gnome wild mage, any optimizer would avoid that subclass like the plague thanks to its randomness). I'm just choosing spells with a particular theme, just as the dragon sorcerer in the party is (he is more of a blaster, but not exclusively). It's not optimization to ready actions or to read spell descriptions.

(Also, it might be worth mentioning that I created a demiplane a few sessions ago, for a few minutes, at level 8 - because banishment does that)

Honestly, I'm more effective as a wild mage than I figured I'd be.

 

[Hussar]

I shouldn't have to optimize to be effective. I really don't understand how to do that, and I never needed it before with a sorcerer. And if you need to optimize to be effective, maybe the class is underpowered?

/snip

Just to add to I'MAB's (your bloody name is too long to type), post, I gotta ask, whut??

How is choosing SoD or SoSuck spells optimising? You asked to play a Sorc that wasn't a blaster. That's very, very easy - don't choose blasty spells. Let's have a little gander at the Sorc's spell list shall we? And create a few themed Sorc's that aren't blasters:

Enchanter Sorc - specializes in mind control and misdirection:

Cantrip : Friends, Minor Illusion, Message
1st: Charm Person, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Sleep
2nd: Blindness/Deafness, Crown of Madness, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion
3rd: Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Slow
4th: Confusion, Dominate beast, Polymorph
5th: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Seeming
6th: Mass Suggestion, (yup, 6th sucks for this theme)
7th: (7th blows for this theme)
8th: Dominate Monster, Power Word Stun
9th: Power Word Kill

Works pretty darn well there. 7th level, you'd have to choose some breadth, forgoing mind control effects, although, you could simply not learn any 7th level spells and just caster your lower level spells as 7th level ones. Not a big deal. And, besides, we're talking a 13th level sorc by this point, so, I'm not too worried. Certainly lots of choice for anything in the low and mid ranges.

Sneaky/Scouty/Information gathering Sorc:

Cantrip: Dancing Lights, Mge Hand, Message
1st: Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Jump, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat.
2nd: Alter Self, Darknvission, Detect Thoughts, Invisiblity, Knock, Levitate, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Spider Climb
3rd: Clairvoyance, Fly, Gaseous Form, Tongues, Water Breathing
4th: Dimension Door, Greater Invis, Polymorph,
5th: Telekinesis, Teleportation Circle
6th: mass Suggestion, True Seeing
7th: Etherealness, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity, Teleport
8th: Dominate Monster
9th: Time Stop

Slot in a few straight up offensive spells at lower levels and you're pretty much good to go.

Look, all you have to do is pick a theme and then choose spells based on that theme. There's about 10-20 spells per spell level. If you can't find what you're looking for out of that list, you're not trying very hard.

 

[Celtavian]

Heighten Spell is nasty with non-blaster spells. I don't think a blaster sorcerer is the best thing to make at all. I think the most powerful sorcerer is Save or Suck spells or buffs. If you want to make a blaster, you make a Sorlock focusing on Eldritch Blast with some occasional AoE worked in. The new Shadow Sorcerer is nasty. That Hound giving disadvantage on spell saves while alive can be harsh. Seeing through a darkness spell is also potent. The Shadow sorcerer might be the new best Sorcerer archetype.

 

[Celtavian]

Just to add to I'MAB's (your bloody name is too long to type), post, I gotta ask, whut??

How is choosing SoD or SoSuck spells optimising? You asked to play a Sorc that wasn't a blaster. That's very, very easy - don't choose blasty spells. Let's have a little gander at the Sorc's spell list shall we? And create a few themed Sorc's that aren't blasters:

Enchanter Sorc - specializes in mind control and misdirection:

Cantrip : Friends, Minor Illusion, Message
1st: Charm Person, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Sleep
2nd: Blindness/Deafness, Crown of Madness, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion
3rd: Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Slow
4th: Confusion, Dominate beast, Polymorph
5th: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Seeming
6th: Mass Suggestion, (yup, 6th sucks for this theme)
7th: (7th blows for this theme)
8th: Dominate Monster, Power Word Stun
9th: Power Word Kill

Works pretty darn well there. 7th level, you'd have to choose some breadth, forgoing mind control effects, although, you could simply not learn any 7th level spells and just caster your lower level spells as 7th level ones. Not a big deal. And, besides, we're talking a 13th level sorc by this point, so, I'm not too worried. Certainly lots of choice for anything in the low and mid ranges.

Sneaky/Scouty/Information gathering Sorc:

Cantrip: Dancing Lights, Mge Hand, Message
1st: Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Jump, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat.
2nd: Alter Self, Darknvission, Detect Thoughts, Invisiblity, Knock, Levitate, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Spider Climb
3rd: Clairvoyance, Fly, Gaseous Form, Tongues, Water Breathing
4th: Dimension Door, Greater Invis, Polymorph,
5th: Telekinesis, Teleportation Circle
6th: mass Suggestion, True Seeing
7th: Etherealness, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity, Teleport
8th: Dominate Monster
9th: Time Stop

Slot in a few straight up offensive spells at lower levels and you're pretty much good to go.

Look, all you have to do is pick a theme and then choose spells based on that theme. There's about 10-20 spells per spell level. If you can't find what you're looking for out of that list, you're not trying very hard.

Make a buffing sorcerer spell list using Twin Spell and Extend Spell.

 

[Hussar]

Make a buffing sorcerer spell list using Twin Spell and Extend Spell.

Oh, hey, sure. I was just going straight from the spell list, and not even bothering with the actual class abilities. Just dispelling the notion that Sorc's are somehow one trick ponies, where the only effective Sorc is a blaster. It's simply not true.

 

[Celtavian]

Oh, hey, sure. I was just going straight from the spell list, and not even bothering with the actual class abilities. Just dispelling the notion that Sorc's are somehow one trick ponies, where the only effective Sorc is a blaster. It's simply not true.

The base sorcerer abilities are fine. I think the number of spells known is a little low. The archetypes aren't as interesting as I'd like coming from Pathfinder. The new Shadow Sorcerer was a step in the right direction. If they added bonus spells or about 5 spells to the spells known list, Sorcerers would be about perfect.

 

[Vael]

The base sorcerer abilities are fine. I think the number of spells known is a little low. The archetypes aren't as interesting as I'd like coming from Pathfinder. The new Shadow Sorcerer was a step in the right direction. If they added bonus spells or about 5 spells to the spells known list, Sorcerers would be about perfect.

Agreed. It sticks in my craw a little that Sorcerers are the full caster with the least spells known. Even a Warlock that doesn't take any invocations to add spells ends up with more spells known (15 + 4 Mystic Arcanum).

If I wanted to fix that, my current favourite house rule is that at levels 10 and 20, Sorcerers get Expanded Knowledge. When a Sorcerer gets Expanded Knowledge, they choose one of the following:
1. Gain 2 bonus Sorcerer Spells known.
2. Gain a bonus Metamagic.
3. Gain 1 spell from any spell list.

Ultimately, though, I'm satisfied with the Sorcerer. They need some more ... spells, metamagic, subclasses, but that can be said of all the classes.

 

[aramis erak]

But the casting stat does still matter. That 13 means that you can't cast 4th level or higher spells, plus starting at level 4 you will have fewer spells per day as a result of the lower number of bonus spells.

5E neither grants bonus spells for high casting stat nor requires a particular score for various spell levels. (On the other hand, it does limit the total ready spells; A 1st level caster with a casting stat under 10 has no leveled spell memorizations available.)

Huh, I don't see that much at all. Sure, no memorizing a limited number of spells from a bigger list every day, but they swapped that for metamagic, wild magic surges, and still having to keep track of slots and spell effects. Not really that much simpler, really. If that was a design goal, and not doubting your recollection that it was, it missed the mark. The warlock's casting is much, much simpler in practice than the sorcerer's, even if the other fiddly bits aren't.

Sorcerers tend to, in my experience, spend less time deciding "Which spell this round?"

 

[chriton227]

5E neither grants bonus spells for high casting stat nor requires a particular score for various spell levels. (On the other hand, it does limit the total ready spells; A 1st level caster with a casting stat under 10 has no leveled spell memorizations available.

The sample build I was commenting on was a 3.5e sorcerer "rogue" build that MS(KL) posted as an example of a build that was "effective" in 3.5e but couldn't be duplicated in 5e, which I was pointing out really wasn't a particularly effective build since in 3.5e the low caster stat did reduce the save DCs, number of spells slots, and max level that could be cast. I should have been more clear about that.

5e did reduce the impact of a low casting stat in some ways, but with all magical attacks now driving off of the casting stat and over-level scroll usage driving off of the casting stat, it has become more important in other ways.

 

[Moorcrys]

I really like sorcerers, but I do have a houserule for them.

In my campaign sorcerers gain a number of metamagic options at 3rd level equal to their Charisma modifier, and an additional metamagic choice at 6th, 10th, and 17th (and whenever their Charisma modifier increases). This gives a high level sorcerer with a 20 Charisma the complete list of metamagic options by the time they're 17th level.

I like them to have more options as to how they can manipulate magic out of the gate. Sorcerers will always be limited by the spells they know and number of sorcery points they can spend (even if they are burning spell slots to get more of them). I like giving them the option of pretty much manipulating the spells they *do* know however they wish as they get into the middle and upper tiers of the game. It feels empowering without necessarily being unbalancing imho. No one has played a sorcerer yet so I'm not sure how it works out in play, but I don't see an issue.

I also think magical items like staffs, which have a few spells in one attunement item, give sorcerers in particular a nice little boost in terms of spell options. I'm considering allowing them to use sorcery points to manipulate spells cast from magical items they have attuned to them as well (maybe at double the point cost or something). Or maybe it'll be a subclass ability of a sorcerous origin I'm working on. We'll see.